When is a Martin not a Martin; Gibson not a Gibson etc

[Carruth]

What I really like about my Larrivee guitar's is that Jean Larrivee has never compromised his name or quality by having guitars made outside his factory.
IMHO both Martin and Taylor have cheapened their brand by making guitars under those brands outside their factories in the USA.

[LifesShort]

I always get a chuckle out of this type of discussion. In this day and time, manufacturing is spread all over the world. My Toyota 4Runner is built in Japan (using parts from China, etc.) and my Toyota Camry is built in Kentucky (using parts from China, etc). Does that make the 4Runner a Japanese car and the Camry an American car? No. It makes them both Toyotas. Last time I checked Toyota is a Japanese company. BTW, the Camry has the same level of quality as the 4Runner. They two of the most reliable vehicles made.

It's the same way with guitars. As long as the company owns the plant and oversees the operation of the plant, what difference does it make? A lot of the wood that is used in the Martin Nazareth plant came from other countries. Does that make the guitars less "American."

Where do we draw the line?

[wrbriggs]

Originally Posted by YeOldRocker

FWIW, the Mexican made Road Series guitars are easily on quality/sound par with Martin's other USA solid wood guitars (below the 18 series), and - as far as I know, the factory in Mexico is Martin run, not built in some generic facility also knocking out other low-end instruments.

For example, there is not, in my opinion, a hugely discernible build quality or sound difference between the D10 sapele and a D15 (that isn't related to the sapele/mahogany preferences), especially if you choose to upgrade its saddle to bone and don't have an unreasonable hatred of Richlite as a fretboard/bridge material. They are, of course, acoustic electrics, with a decent but still simple under-saddle pickup, which traditionalists may hate, but if you have to electrify a D15, you also just jumped its cost well above the D10s and may end up with a similar pickup anyway.

Ultimately, the Road Series acoustics I've played all sound pretty much as you'd expect a Martin to sound. They are not noticeably lesser guitars, just not necessarily high end, which also sometimes is a better thing (playing in clubs, for instance, once we get to do things like that again, you're less likely to worry about a bump or two).

While I'd much rather own, say, a D18 than a D10 - the former being a much better instrument overall - the cost differential is enormous, even for used D18s. So, if money is an issue and you need a good guitar that sounds unquestionably like a Martin is supposed to sound, I think any argument against a non-USA made Martin is coming from some largely irrational place, which is cool, but should be admitted to as such.

FWIW, I don't own a Road Series guitar, having only played a number of them before the recent lockdown. I am, however, still kicking myself I didn't grab the even lower priced floor D10 sapele model I particularly liked some months ago. Fortunately, I have other guitars at home I am grateful to own, including a Martin, and the shops will open again, eventually...

I notice you're also in Vermont - I am prejudiced in this argument, because I just purchased a 000-13e from Advance Music on the last day before they got acquired (and right before all non-essential businesses closed in the state). Jeff W. helped me pick it out, and I love it - it's not quite the same as my OM-21 I sold due to financial reasons years ago, but it's a great guitar, and I don't have to worry about it quite as much with my daughter giving it a few bumps.

[CoffeeFan]

For a Martin, Taylor or Gibson, I won't buy it if it's not American made. I just think that a guitar with an iconic American brand name on it should be an American made guitar.

Fender electrics? Some of the nicest Fenders I've played have been offshore guitars. I used to have a Squier that had an amazing neck on it, and a lot of the Mexican stuff gives the Corona stuff a real run for its money...

[TBman]

A guitar, to me, is about tone, playability and workmanship.

I don't care if a guitar is made by fairies under a rainbow wearing flip flops. If it has what I want I'm buying it.

[CoffeeFan]

Originally Posted by TBman

A guitar, to me, is about tone, playability and workmanship.

I don't care if a guitar is made by fairies under a rainbow wearing flip flops. If it has what I want I'm buying it.

The wearing of flip flops in a production/shop environment would be dangerous, at best, and it demonstrates a lack of respect for safety. I can't support something like that.

Get the fairies some protective footwear and then we'll talk...

[Photojeep]

Originally Posted by TBman

A guitar, to me, is about tone, playability and workmanship.

I don't care if a guitar is made by fairies under a rainbow wearing flip flops. If it has what I want I'm buying it.

What he said...

But yeah, the flip flop thing just doesn't work for me...
Personally I can't stand the things, so if the fairies are wearing them it's definitely a deal breaker.

Best,
PJ
(Proud owner of PA-made and Navojoa-made Martins)

[6 Strings MI]

My feelings about this topic are getting pretty strong, but some good points have been made recently...so I'm compelled to weigh in.

I agree with L20A: an American manufacturer who desires to produce guitars overseas should come up with a new name.

The cars and guitars comparison works well up to a point. Since 1981, the first character of a VIN indicates country of assembly. Origin of the whole's parts may also play a role in that. So I would say that my 1993 Ford F-150 (excellent truck, and one I wish I still had) was a Ford assembled in Canada. I don't know of any guitar manufacturer who indicates country of manufacture in their serial numbering system. Raw materials cannot always be locally sourced; certain tone woods and ores can only be found in select places. That's why the phrase "made in <insert country of your choice> of imported materials" is used.

U.S. regulations mandate wearing of proper footwear in factories. I've worked in warehouses where even sneakers were prohibited; personnel who were in the warehouse for their entire shift had to wear boots with non-slip soles.

And I'm more and more strongly considering a Larrivée as my next guitar.

[Riverwolf]

Originally Posted by CoffeeFan

Get the fairies some protective footwear and then we'll talk...

And a mask.
We have decided now that face masks are essential.

Silly post with silly answers.
Reminds me of motorcycle snobbery.
I used to ride Harleys.
I almost bought into the crap American made idea there too.

Funny when everyone knows you can drain the oil out of a Honda and still ride it all day.

[ataylor]

Originally Posted by Carruth

IMHO both Martin and Taylor have cheapened their brand by making guitars under those brands outside their factories in the USA.

I give them credit for being willing to put their name on instruments that are made in their own factories, made to be accessible to younger players, beginners, players who may not yet be able to afford a USA-made guitar, and/or players looking to purchase an instrument that may not require as much care and attention as an all-solid guitar does.

I would also imagine that if you talked to whoever crunches the numbers at Martin and Taylor, they would tell you that their entry-level instruments made in Mexico are key in helping them continue to make instruments at scale in Nazareth PA and El Cajon CA.

Not only that, but I would imagine that those who purchase an entry-level Martin or Taylor are that much more likely to end up with a higher-cost, USA-made guitar later on. By making their instruments accessible to a wider range of people, they increase their brand reach and recognizability.

[OregonJim]

Originally Posted by L20A

For me, this idea started when Guild started selling Chinese made guitars.
While these are very good guitars, I don't like to see Guild on the headstock.

I feel the same with the other American guitar makers.
If it is made outside of America, it should have a different name on it.
I like the way Martin first did it with Sigma and Shenandoah.

This is my opinion and yours may very.

I share your opinion completely.

Not saying I would or wouldn't buy one of these "other" brands - but an American brand should only sell what is made in America, not import from elsewhere and slap their name on it.

[wrbriggs]

I think it's fascinating that people are fine with guitars made in Canada, but won't purchase guitars manufactured in Mexico, or at the very least, want the "foreign" guitars labelled differently.

Let me ask you all this - would you be upset or refuse to purchase a Larrivee or Godin guitar that was manufactured in the US instead of Canada if they didn't change the name on the headstock?

[L20A]

I don't see much posted about not buying guitars that are build in Mexico or other places.
I own several guitars that were made outside the USA.
I enjoy these guitars a lot.

My point is that American guitar builders should brand their non American guitars differently.

It is misleading.

Now don't get me started with the Guild Westerly Collection thing.

[wrbriggs]

Originally Posted by L20A

I don't see much posted about not buying guitars that are build in Mexico or other places.
I own several guitars that were made outside the USA.
I enjoy these guitars a lot.

My point is that American guitar builders should brand their non American guitars differently.

It is misleading.

Now don't get me started with the Guild Westerly Collection thing.

Does this only apply to American guitar builders? You didn't answer my question about whether you would have a problem buying a Godin or Larrivee that was built in the USA instead of Canada...

[Wellington]

Originally Posted by wrbriggs

I think it's fascinating that people are fine with guitars made in Canada, but won't purchase guitars manufactured in Mexico, or at the very least, want the "foreign" guitars labelled differently.

Let me ask you all this - would you be upset or refuse to purchase a Larrivee or Godin guitar that was manufactured in the US instead of Canada if they didn't change the name on the headstock?

Yes thats a good point, it is an interesting thing I've been observing. I have no problem wherever the guitar is made personally, my main guitar is made in China and I can't say enough good things about it. My point was that even though I have no problem owning a Mexican Martin, I can't help but feel it's not the genuine thing, and I think thats because of people often talking about this topic that I brought up, lol.

But there has been some good points that have helped me adjust my 'feeling' about it all throughout this thread, just like the vehicle demonstration and the fact that I don't think twice about this topic concerning my Yamaha. The guitar is still designed and the materials designated by the company, regardless where it's made. I can honestly say I feel less of the feeling I had when I started the thread; that a Martin D10 for instance, isn't really a true Martin. It's not made in the historic plant, but it's still a Martin design built by Martin employees.