Schatten HFN - Are You Kidding Me!!!???

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

I had K&K, JJB, Element, HFN, Schertler Dyn-G and many others combined with internal mic such as DPA, went thru IR, great preamp etc. Then, I installed a Barbera Soloist. I will not buy any other pickup, it’s so good. Not only it sounds really natural but it is also the least feedback prone one.

Sorry but I do find this a little odd. The Barbera Soloist compared to all the other pickups that you mentioned above is the least natural sounding of the lot. It has the same typical UST quack when strummed. Ironically, I'm currently running the Soloist + bags mic with the Anthem preamp in the only guitar so far that I couldn't get the HFN to sound the way I wanted it. It's a carbon fiber guitar so that's a different beast and I won't get into that here. The Soloist does have excellent feedback rejection and string separation and with a little bit of air from a mic sounds really good, but not quite HFN good.

Here's some observations from various comments in this thread so far. Training the Soloist with Tonedexter does require hitting every 2nd string. Training with Jon's algorithm does not. The HFN does such a good job of replicating how a guitar sounds without any other outboard gear. I can tell that a particular guitar has nickel strings for example. If the guitar doesn't have a lot of low end to begin with than you're not going to get a lot with the HFN either. If the HFN is installed in a brighter sounding guitar than it will cut through a mix with ease, compared to a boomy dreadnought.

I have plenty of experience with this pickup now in a variety of guitar bodies up to and including carbon fiber. For those looking for the 'guitar only louder' it's hard to beat at this moment based on the pickup alone. It gets even better for me personally as it doesn't require glue. I'm currently using Jon's IR that I uploaded in Tonedexter and it sounds great live. If for some reason I couldn't use this setup I'm happy enough to just plug the HFN straight into my Fishman amp and still get a great sound.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Good point. I have a feeling that many of the pickups that I have tried and dismissed would sound awesome in a warmer/fatter sounding guitar. My Taylor just doesn't have a huge low end so I often notice that missing from pickups. The HFN for me was weird though in that it wasn't just missing an enhanced low end; it also just seemed to not be amplifying the low E string in the same way it was the other strings. It was as if the sustain was missing when I would play single note lines.

I had mentioned a UST/HFN set up earlier but not sure if that would work now. I currently have a Matrix in my guitar and found that the wire coming from the Matrix and through the bridge is in the exact spot where one of the HFN feet needs to go. I wonder how people get around that?

You could try cutting a notch or drilling a hole in the HFN bass-end foot to enable the Matrix lead wire passage through it. I doubt very much that the amplified tone would be affected in a negative way by performing this surgery on your HFN. If I recall correctly, when I was messing around with my Larrivee D05E with its onboard iMix, there was a notch at the end of the iBeam to enable the Element UST's lead wire to get by the bass-end of the iBeam.

In reality, a coaxial-type UST like Schatten's or LR Baggs's Element would help enable an easier clearance of the HFN because of the angle-drilled hole for the lead wire.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by tadol

That is correct - and in training the Barbera with the Tonedexter, you need to play only alternate strings while doing the training.

I did not do that for Doug Young. It was a straightforward fingerstyle arrangement.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...3&postcount=12

[Villamarzia]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Sorry but I do find this a little odd. The Barbera Soloist compared to all the other pickups that you mentioned above is the least natural sounding of the lot. It has the same typical UST quack when strummed. Ironically, I'm currently running the Soloist + bags mic with the Anthem preamp in the only guitar so far that I couldn't get the HFN to sound the way I wanted it. It's a carbon fiber guitar so that's a different beast and I won't get into that here. The Soloist does have excellent feedback rejection and string separation and with a little bit of air from a mic sounds really good, but not quite HFN good.

Well, the quality of sound is not only subjective, but also depends on the guitar, the way it is installed etc.

But let me rephrase: I had excellent results with other pickups, especially in dual sources. BUT, once at stage volume, I had to compromise (bring the mic down, eq more than I want, apply high pass filter, notch here, notch there..).

With the Barbera I don’t have such issues and the sound stays as I like it. I don’t use a pick, which also might make a difference.

My current set is barbera>vovox cable>markbass acoustic head (H250, I think)>Daedalus cabinet

A very lean signal path and sounds like I want with zero EQ, just a touch of reverb from the Markbass head. Plus, it’s passive. I just miss sometimes a volume control, but being feedback free, I probably don’t really need it that much..

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Villamarzia

I don’t use a pick, which also might make a difference.

That would most likely be the biggest difference. I play a little bit of everything and when I don't use a pick with the Soloist it does sound very good without anything else added to it. Whenever I try a pickup the first thing I do is test it with heavy strumming and that's where the HFN really shines compared to the Soloist IMO. I also agree about the EQ. I like to just plug in and play away without adjusting anything. I don't EQ my HFN's and also don't EQ my Soloist+Anthem setup.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

That would most likely be the biggest difference. I play a little bit of everything and when I don't use a pick with the Soloist it does sound very good without anything else added to it. Whenever I try a pickup the first thing I do is test it with heavy strumming and that's where the HFN really shines compared to the Soloist IMO. I also agree about the EQ. I like to just plug in and play away without adjusting anything. I don't EQ my HFN's and also don't EQ my Soloist+Anthem setup.

FWIW, I found a cut around 500Hz to help a lot with the Soloist strumming sound. That surprised me a bit, as I usually find a cut in the 1KHz to 1.5KHz range to work better for an undersaddle or an in-saddle pickup.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

FWIW, I found a cut around 500Hz to help a lot with the Soloist strumming sound. That surprised me a bit, as I usually find a cut in the 1KHz to 1.5KHz range to work better for an undersaddle or an in-saddle pickup.

Gary are you saying that helps reduce the piezo quack?

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I had my recently-received Republic Duolian company-fitted with a Schatten NR-2 Biscuit Pickup which looks like the Schatten HFN with the three-footed base removed. It sounds absolutely great routed through my Sarno Steel Guitar Black Box Tube/Buffer preamp and then into an amp or active PA speaker. .

clips please

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

clips please

I'll try to get a clip posted in the next day or so. Meanwhile, here is a photo of my Republic's Duolian Schatten Pickup location that is installed skewed toward the bass side of the bridge with the bass-end of the pickup exactly between the 5th and 6th strings and the treble-end of the pickup just inside the 2nd string:

[Petty1818]

Off topic a bit but a few years ago I purchased a Schatten bouzouki pickup that's just the piezo, which sticks to the backside of the saddle. It sounded great but the endpin jack was a weird set up. It attached to the tailpiece of the bouzouki and just never felt that secure. It looks like Schatten released a new version so I am definitely picking one up.

https://schatten-pickups-cdn.myshopi...tyle-tailpiece

I am still considering trying the HFN again as well in my guitar. I want to pair it with a UST potentially.

[Dave L]

I recently installed an HFN in my new CEO7, so far it sounds really nice. I only really know when I play a gig with it, which isn't happening anytime soon But so far I am really liking the results.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Off topic a bit but a few years ago I purchased a Schatten bouzouki pickup that's just the piezo, which sticks to the backside of the saddle. It sounded great but the endpin jack was a weird set up. It attached to the tailpiece of the bouzouki and just never felt that secure. It looks like Schatten released a new version so I am definitely picking one up.

https://schatten-pickups-cdn.myshopi...tyle-tailpiece

I am still considering trying the HFN again as well in my guitar. I want to pair it with a UST potentially.

The Schatten NR-2 Biscuit Bridge Piezo's installation instructions indicate it can be installed either on the back of a resonator's bridge or on top of the biscuit in which the bridge is inserted. Republic chooses to mount the pickup on the top of the biscuit close to the bridge. I believe they think this gives the warmest tone. The system comes with a 1/4 inch jack that Republic mounts on the nickel-plated, bell-brass guitar's lower-bout. It's a sturdy setup that should last a long time.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

The Schatten NR-2 Biscuit Bridge Piezo's installation instructions indicate it can be installed either on the back of a resonator's bridge or on top of the biscuit in which the bridge is inserted. Republic chooses to mount the pickup on the top of the biscuit close to the bridge. I believe they think this gives the warmest tone. The system comes with a 1/4 inch jack that Republic mounts on the nickel-plated, bell-brass guitar's lower-bout. It's a sturdy setup that should last a long time.

I have a Schatten Dualie that I purchased years ago with a standard 1/4" plug at the end of the cable for quick installations. Last night for fun I tried it on the outside of my Taylor. I couldn't believe how good it sounded. Even just under the treble side of the bridge, the bass was nice and big. Makes me wonder how it would sound internally on the bridge plate. I am definitely going to continue experimenting with Schatten pickups. I also really like that they offer the Artist 2 internal preamp that allows for blending of two pickups but with a mono signal.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Sorry but I do find this a little odd. The Barbera Soloist compared to all the other pickups that you mentioned above is the least natural sounding of the lot. It has the same typical UST quack when strummed.

I don't strum, so that maybe a major factor - but I've always totally rejected USTs, and have used probably every SBT out there. I'm now up to my 5th Barbera. It just sounds good to me, both acoustically and plugged in. Especially with a little correction from ToneDexter, it sounds pretty natural to me. Even without ToneDexter, into an amp, it sounds good, very balanced sound, no feedback or woofy issues. Warm, clear, clean. I still have Trance in a couple of guitars, and a great-sounding set of Dazzo's in one. I do add an internal mic to any pickup I use, which smooths out the Barbera as well as anything else, and use ToneDexter.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Gary are you saying that helps reduce the piezo quack?

It just gave me a generally more pleasing sound for strumming. I only used a modest cut of three or four db, but it sounded much better to my ear.

There was nothing I could do to make it as quack-reduced as the Enke designed USTs that I'm used to.