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  #31  
Old 03-22-2020, 06:14 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
IMO, that works. Period. You don't need to be afraid of it or feel like you're compromising.
You wouldn't likely set up a vocal mic at that angle to someone's mouth if recording separately, so there's certainly a compromise.

It comes down to this question: Is that the optimal angle to set the mic for recording vocals?
If the answer is 'no,' then a compromise has been made.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea to do this in some situations.
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Last edited by jim1960; 03-22-2020 at 06:22 PM.
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  #32  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:21 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
You wouldn't likely set up a vocal mic at that angle to someone's mouth if recording separately, so there's certainly a compromise.

It comes down to this question: Is that the optimal angle to set the mic for recording vocals?
If the answer is 'no,' then a compromise has been made.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea to do this in some situations.
I can link you to a bunch of my recordings that were done that way. If you didn't know where the mic was, you would never think the mic was in the wrong spot. Besides which, mic-tilted-up is actually a great way to keep the performer more on-axis if they sneak looks at the fretboard. Which they all do.
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  #33  
Old 03-22-2020, 07:48 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I can link you to a bunch of my recordings that were done that way. If you didn't know where the mic was, you would never think the mic was in the wrong spot. Besides which, mic-tilted-up is actually a great way to keep the performer more on-axis if they sneak looks at the fretboard. Which they all do.
I'm not saying you can't get a usable track that way. I'm simply saying it's not optimal. In other words, if you were recording a vox track with nothing else being recorded at the same time, that is not how you'd angle the mic to the singer in the vast majority of cases. If this was the best way to angle a mic to a singer, we'd see it done in nearly all circumstances, not just special circumstances.
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2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
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2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
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  #34  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:21 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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I'm not saying you can't get a usable track that way. I'm simply saying it's not optimal.
Okay, let's talk about Theory vs Practice.

Go here: https://soundcloud.com/user-478432915

And listen to:

• Britt Kusserow
• John Torres
• Trevor Green
• Jake Goldman
• Harold Payne
• Dawn Frinta
• Colin Martin
• Naia Kete
• Everett Coast
• Lizzie Sider
• Sunny War
• Marina V
• Diana Carr
• Emmett Skyy

These singer/guitarists were all recorded live, one take only. Point out which ones sound less than optimal.

My point being that while you probably won't get fired for using recording "best practices," you might get better results if you've actually done it a time or two and go with what you know.
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  #35  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:25 PM
RRuskin RRuskin is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I was having that happen a lot -- flipping polarity at the tracking stage, since I was recording other people, not myself -- and then I realized that one of my tube mics had a generic power supply whose output was Pin 3 Hot. I've since discovered that those power supplies are all over the place.
That's why I have an oscilloscope running full-time in my studio. It's saved me a lot of grief.
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2020, 12:08 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is online now
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Okay, let's talk about Theory vs Practice.
This has nothing to do with theory vs practice.
Is the position of the mic in the video optimal for recording a vocal track with no other recording happening at the same time?
That's a simple yes or no question.

If you answer yes, you'll have to explain why it's not the preferred practice in the vast majority of vocal recordings.
If the answer is no, then my point is made.

That it has worked and produced acceptable results is besides the point. I've already said it can. I never argued that it cannot nor have I said one should not use that technique if the situation calls for it. I'm also not saying that a mic has to be perfectly perpendicular to the floor. A little bit of a tilt to control plosives is a fairly common technique. My point is that the mic in that video is not the optimal position since it is moving the vocalist off axis and close to the edge of pattern area. I know you like to argue but I'm not going down your rabbit hole because it's irrelevant to the point I made.

So once again, is the position of the mic in the video optimal for recording a vocal track with no other recording happening at the same time?
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2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube

Last edited by jim1960; 03-23-2020 at 01:59 AM.
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  #37  
Old 03-23-2020, 07:08 AM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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People read these threads to pick up tips. With the links I've posted, I think I've been of service while making my case.

Peace out.
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  #38  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:52 AM
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For full disclosure I am not a professional and only record myself.
I have however had the good fortune to have been able to record in a few professional recording studios. 10 songs In NYC, 4 songs just outside Nashville, 3 songs in Palo Alto.
I play and sing and have used the one LDC mic (all at once technique) I have used 2 mics (both 2 LDC and 1 LDC, 1 SDC ) all at once technique And the guitar and vocal separately (overdub) technique . All of them work albeit I think all have slightly different strengths

That said IMO I think we as home recordist (if we have the gear) should experiment with all three
Also and getting back to the OP, now if I'm going to record a vocal and acoustic all at once (Which I still do along with also over dub).
The technique in the video Al posted would be the one I would choose

By the way I could not get the embedded video to play so here is the
link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WrM...ywAXwM&index=4
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  #39  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:51 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Aloha RyanR,

You asked for the "BEST" way to minimize vocal bleed for combined guitar & vocal tracks, right?

ONLY ONE ANSWER: Record the vocal & guitar tracks separately. And control the levels separately.

And you know that RyanR because you have recorded that way. So what's the deal?

Many singer/players come to AGF who refuse to record separate tracks because playing guitar while singing is the only way they feel comfortable or have tried. Long ago, I was among them.

Once you record separate tracks, you don't want to do it any other way, especially for editing & mastering. It made a huge difference in creating more consistent recordings, with no bleed, FOR MANY REASONS.

From your entry-level mic choices, we can tell that your goal for these recordings is not a professional grade CD, youtube or other commercial project, right? So why care about mic bleed if you already know a better way?

Many here have provided suggestions that would work. The most common-sense one is to experiment more with EVERY angle of mic placement & choose the one(s) that work. That will teach you a lot about recording & working mic's live. And then, turn down the vocal level if it's too loud. That's pretty much it if you're going to try & record playing & singing at the same time. And that's how we do it at gigs, right? Or,

Go with the lone suggestion that makes sense for every type of recording: record separate vocal & guitar tracks, mix accordingly & call it a day.

I know he's a newbie, guys, but three pages for this?

alohachris

PS: RyanR - The Shure SM-58A is a pretty good live mic. But you should consider a cardioid condenser mic for recording for more clarity than a dynamic mic can provide. You already are using an AKG 120 condenser for your guitar tracks, right. Try to borrow or buy an APPROPRIATE studio condenser mic for vocals, right? Get a used AKG 535 condenser (highly recommended & cheap & also better than your 120 on guitar). Sing through that, playing through the AKG 120 condenser AND remember to always use separate tracks for your home recordings, RyanR! Otherwise, Let It Bleed!

Last edited by alohachris; 03-23-2020 at 05:42 PM.
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  #40  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:55 PM
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Default What alohachris suggested...

Beyond a shadow of any doubt...Go with what alohachris has suggested...Absofreakin’lutely...

He is - IMHO - The Acoustic Warrior.
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  #41  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:04 AM
RyanR RyanR is offline
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Alohachris -

One of the major drawbacks to online forums is the risk of starting "flame wars". I'll respond to your post but I have no interest in starting one here. So please take it in that light and not a comment on your expertise which I'm sure is better than mine.

First of all let me be clear - I'm a happy amateur. Never been a pro (unless you count working for tips and a few dollars for gas) and will never claim to be.

When I've played out live I use a Sure SM58 and normally go direct into a board for the instrument.

I understand the only way to prevent 100% of mic bleed is to record tracks separately. I've done a bunch of recordings that way. For vocals I normally use an AKG 214 (as mentioned in my OP). Not a pro mic by any stretch, but a well-respected prosumer cardiod. That mic works well for capturing acoustic guitar too.

But now I'm trying something new. Experimenting.

I used a SM58 Beta and AKG Perception 120 in an attempt to reduce mic bleed, not because they are the best possible mics for single track recording. The lower sensitivity of these mics seemed to help the cause.

For whatever set of reasons some people want to record vocals and instrument together. Maybe they are more comfortable that way. Or they are going for a live feel.

People seem to care about this topic. That is why, I think, there are 3 pages of responses to this. (Or maybe they just want to correct the "mistakes" of a new poster - I don't know).

Apparently even professionals do this. Al Acuff posted a great video from Bob Clearmountain showing some useful tips.

I see nothing wrong with recording this way (and trying to minimize mic bleed) as long as you are not going for the most pristine sound. It is all just music.

Anyway I'm glad I made the original post. I did pick up some useful tips. For example, that video was interesting. I never thought of using an LDC and angling it "upside down".

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Happy 'pickin.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha RyanR,

You asked for the "BEST" way to minimize vocal bleed for combined guitar & vocal tracks, right?

ONLY ONE ANSWER: Record the vocal & guitar tracks separately. And control the levels separately.

And you know that RyanR because you have recorded that way. So what's the deal?

Many singer/players come to AGF who refuse to record separate tracks because playing guitar while singing is the only way they feel comfortable or have tried. Long ago, I was among them.

Once you record separate tracks, you don't want to do it any other way, especially for editing & mastering. It made a huge difference in creating more consistent recordings, with no bleed, FOR MANY REASONS.

From your entry-level mic choices, we can tell that your goal for these recordings is not a professional grade CD, youtube or other commercial project, right? So why care about mic bleed if you already know a better way?

Many here have provided suggestions that would work. The most common-sense one is to experiment more with EVERY angle of mic placement & choose the one(s) that work. That will teach you a lot about recording & working mic's live. And then, turn down the vocal level if it's too loud. That's pretty much it if you're going to try & record playing & singing at the same time. And that's how we do it at gigs, right? Or,

Go with the lone suggestion that makes sense for every type of recording: record separate vocal & guitar tracks, mix accordingly & call it a day.

I know he's a newbie, guys, but three pages for this?

alohachris

PS: RyanR - The Shure SM-58A is a pretty good live mic. But you should consider a cardioid condenser mic for recording for more clarity than a dynamic mic can provide. You already are using an AKG 120 condenser for your guitar tracks, right. Try to borrow or buy an APPROPRIATE studio condenser mic for vocals, right? Get a used AKG 535 condenser (highly recommended & cheap & also better than your 120 on guitar). Sing through that, playing through the AKG 120 condenser AND remember to always use separate tracks for your home recordings, RyanR! Otherwise, Let It Bleed!
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  #42  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:35 AM
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Plus remember some bleed may not be all the detrimental at least not enough to forgo trying it

The only thing about using two mic's only 1 on voice and 1 on guitar is that (sans FX) you will not get as wide a sound stage as with a pair on the guitar. BUT that is not necessarily a "bad thing" and is a matter of personal preference really

I recorded 10 songs in a studio in NYC using exactly the set up and positioning in Clearmountain's video, Except it was two U87ai LDC mics

Here is a video I made (in my attic studio) a while back with two mics at the same time, however the vocal mic is vertical (not angled) and the SDC pointed at the lower bridge area. This is the narrower soundstage i mentioned and there is some guitar bleed into the vocal mic. But IMO not all that problematic

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Last edited by KevWind; 03-24-2020 at 12:41 PM.
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  #43  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:34 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Apologies, Ryan R

I'm Sorry, Ryan R!

Your first paragraph of the last post was a very effective, mature & disarming one. Got my attention - instead of FU2 - Ha!

Sometimes I "see" the obvious & am too quick to judge & criticize. For example: I feel that the requirement for A LOT of mic placement experimentation is under-appreciated by many newbies. But it is essential for learning how to achieve the balance of sound you're looking for & being able to replicate that same placement for live or recording applications in different spaces. Newbies often believe that buying a new mic is the answer instead of the unsexy sweat equity involved. (Same with Room Treatment - another topic - Ha!)

Not very often, for an oft-repeated topic, my observation is expressed as mild criticism or impatience. Not intended that way, Ryan. Of course you could have more strongly criticized my forgetting of your AKG 214 condenser mic but also showed restraint. So thank you.

These are the most extraordinary times of our lives. I admit that I'm feeling the pressure. I'm 75 with a pre-existing condition that puts me in the at-risk category for COVID-19. I've been self-quarantining alone at home for over three weeks! And I have idiot younger folks around me who don't seem to get the message on personal restraint & social distancing. I swear they're trying to spread the virus! I didn't mean to project that on to you, RyanR. Again, I apologize. Thanks for staying on topic.

In the mid-70's I played in many Bluegrass & Old-Timey Bands before moving to the Islands. We were always trying to find the balance between everybody being heard on stage & singing harmonies around a single mic, as is the tradition. The best mic for that is a large diaphragm omni, which are also the worst for feedback. So it was a challenge to add in our instruments to that.

I did learn a lot about mic placement & avoiding bleed from that - because it's very difficult to do well without bleed, or some voice being weaker in the mix. It was also the same in using mic placement to avoid feedback at my gigs in thousands of different types of venues. So I still say, experiment with it. EX: I always used to hanging my LDC studio condensers upside down. There are so many mic placement options that work. Experiment.

I was a gigger for some 55 years & was completely comfortable playing & singing at the same time & tried to record that way. It took me years to finally commit to using separate tracks for guitar & vocal tracks. It was so worth it - especially for the control when editing & mastering. That's why I pushed it on you. Clear results & no bleed were my goals for recording.

RyanR, I've always been a big fan & proponent of mic choice & mic placement experimentation & I see now that that's really all you were asking about. Sorry if my current tension translated into a mild flame. I apologize to you.

All the best & please stay safe & @home. Hey, three pages? What the heck else do we have to do now, right? Ha!

A Hui Hou!

alohachris
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  #44  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:34 PM
RyanR RyanR is offline
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Hey Aloha Chris,

That is very nice of you to respond in the way you did. I was pretty sure when I read your post that your intentions were "pure" even if maybe you bolded an extra sentence or two. You clearly knew what you were talking about. And "The Doc" who posted right after you gave a shout out to your expertise. So when I said thank you for taking the time to post a response, I meant it.

I have great sympathy for your current situation. I'm sure it is really hard.

My father, who is 83, lives in a retirement community where they've asked everyone to stay in their rooms at all times. They deliver meals to them. My dad had to get special dispensation from the general manager to be able to go out once per day for a walk (keeping far away from other people). Thank goodness for online video chat.

I can appreciate your on-stage experience. When I was a kid my dad played (for years) in a bluegrass band back in Michigan. They were locally quite successful and even cut a record. I never played with them but I did see them play. No "plugging direct into the main" back in those days hah! Keep your guitar near as you can to a mic on the stand and lucky if you don't have to share a vocal mic. (Or maybe they wanted to share vocal mics like you say).

Anyway I'm confident all your expertise is very "hard won" and worth listening to.

Please take care, stay safe, and stay sane!
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