Why would you prefer "hand-carved" scalloped X bracing?

[Riverwolf]

Wow. Thanks for all the replies.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by srick

Jamie -

Interesting analogy - You would be interested to know that bone is a lot like wood - a natural product that is honeycombed with channels and variability from piece to piece. The machining of the socket provides initial stability. Ultimately, the stability of the prosthesis is determined by the fusion of the bone to the titanium (osseointegration,) and the mechanical 'joint' becomes less of an issue.

Bottom line - organic materials are variable!

best,

Rick

PS - Early on in the development of prostheses, one of the ways stability was tested was to tap the titanium and listen to the resultant sound. Pretty subjective!

Wow and to think I was just kidding!
Seriously though, I'll be glad when the fusion is complete as that's when the pain will subside. It's not bad during the day, but by evening the combination of that, sore muscle and incision pain isn't any fun. We're gettin' there.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Steadfastly

He may tap the top but does he glue the braces on, finish the guitar and tap again and realize something is not right and take the guitar apart and redo the braces?

Hi S-fastly

Yes, solo builders adjust braces throughout the process of building a guitar. Some even after the body is glued up.

Harry Fleishman - guitar builder and instructor - builds an access panel into the guitars so he can go in after a guitar is totally built and adjust braces more easily.

He taught Michael Bashkin to build guitars (Ervin Somogyi added to Michael's building education several years later as well). Harry is a free thinker…the picture below he's the one holding a guitar and the access panel is in his hand & one on the bench has it's panel removed.



I spent about 45 minutes asking him questions and following him as he paced around answering them at a guitar show. It was one of the best 45 minutes talking about guitars I've ever spent! Here's a great video interview with Harry…about



At about 13 minutes in he shows the access panel on a unique guitar. He builds fairly exotic instruments, and a lot of one-off guitars. He built a few acoustic bass guitars with tops which were ½ Cedar - ½ Spruce.

Anyway, voicing is something solo guitar builders use to fine tune tone. Manufacturers usually just cut/sand the braces and glue them in.

[Steadfastly]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi S-fastly

Yes, solo builders adjust braces throughout the process of building a guitar. Some even after the body is glued up.

Harry Fleishman - guitar builder and instructor - builds an access panel into the guitars so he can go in after a guitar is totally built and adjust braces more easily.

He taught Michael Bashkin to build guitars (Ervin Somogyi added to Michael's building education several years later as well). Harry is a free thinker…the picture below he's the one holding a guitar and the access panel is in his hand & one on the bench has it's panel removed.



I spent about 45 minutes asking him questions and following him as he paced around answering them at a guitar show. It was one of the best 45 minutes talking about guitars I've ever spent! Here's a great video interview with Harry…about



At about 13 minutes in he shows the access panel on a unique guitar. He builds fairly exotic instruments, and a lot of one-off guitars. He built a few acoustic bass guitars with tops which were ½ Cedar - ½ Spruce.

Anyway, voicing is something solo guitar builders use to fine tune tone. Manufacturers usually just cut/sand the braces and glue them in.

Well, that is very interesting! I guess there are few that do that after the guitar is build but I can see the advantages of doing so. In this case, I can see how hand carving/sanding the braces could be beneficial. Thanks for posting this.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Harry is a free thinker…the picture below he's the one holding a guitar and the access panel is in his hand & one on the bench has it's panel removed.

Not to diminish his free thinking, but, I believe, the access panel was first introduced by Richard Schneider in the 1980's.

[Steadfastly]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Not to diminish his free thinking, but, I believe, the access panel was first introduced by Richard Schneider in the 1980's.

I listened to the video while I was working and I think he mentions this in the video although, perhaps not the date.

[Rodger Knox]

Nobody has mentioned that a CNC machine would not know which pieces of bracewood to throw away. I suspect at least half of the bracewood used by factories would be rejected by an individual builder.

Original question, CNC carving or carving by hand has no significant effect on the quality of the product. Pick what you like.

[guitar george]

Hand scalloped braces can be any shape as determined by the luthier.

[Alan Carruth]

I took the Martin tour a few years ago. The woman who was hand carving the braces simply made the top she was working on look like the example hung up in front of her. She didn't tap or flex the top in any way to test it. The hand carving took all of about two minutes, iirc. She had a large and really sharp carving chisel...

You have to keep in mind that the standard designs are really quite well optimized. Working carefully with good wood will get you a pretty nice guitar nearly every time, although, of course, they'll all be different. For a factory that's great. Every guitar they make is somebody's 'Holy Grail'; all they have to do is find that person and they've got a happy customer.

Hand makers have a different problem. They're often working toward a particular sound, based on a description by a customer that may be more than a bit vague. Somehow you've got to take that sound and wrap a box around it. It can be like nailing jelly to the wall. Any technique that seems to make sense will be tried by somebody. It might even work.

The bottom line is that 'hand carved' bracing from a factory is pretty much going to be a sales pitch more than a useful method of quality control. They simply can't take the time to use it in a productive way. In the context of a small shop or individual maker hand carving may or may not be helpful; it depends on how well the maker understands what they're doing. One sign of that is how consistent the instruments are.

[Arthur Blake]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

I took the Martin tour a few years ago. ...

You have to keep in mind that the standard designs are really quite well optimized. ...

I removed a lot of Alan's words to make my point. I think people may forget that, at the time the early designs were developed, consistency was considered an asset compared to the variability of hand work.

Now today that thinking is reversed by those who feel they can improve on the design with individual attention.

Still, that doesn't explain how "hand carved" is an asset if they're doing it the same every time - unless a questionable piece of wood would be rejected as part of the process.

Also, not being a wood carver, I don't know if there is any innate advantage to hand carving rather than CNC machining. For example, I know that hand split wood follows the grain line and that has some advantages.

[brandall10]

Originally Posted by Arthur Blake

Still, that doesn't explain how "hand carved" is an asset if they're doing it the same every time - unless a questionable piece of wood would be rejected as part of the process.

How could it be - aren't the braces entirely glued to the top before being carved? Are they not fully set and can be removed if for instance one has some non-visible knot or something to that effect?

[brandall10]

I must say I'm a little surprised the big manufacturers don't do some sort of tap tuning if they're actually hand carving the braces. I just got an OM-28A and while it's a fantastic guitar, like why not do something like this for a $5k instrument unless they really are just sticking to tradition?

Here's a video of Dana B doing it in under 15 minutes and he taps/checks every minute or two while taking several breaks to talk to the camera. Even if they just did a tap check a half dozen times it would probably be an improvement and add like what, 5 minutes tops to the process?

https://youtu.be/bNchJIfT2O8

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by brandall10

I must say I'm a little surprised the big manufacturers don't do some sort of tap tuning if they're actually hand carving the braces.

They don’t need to. They sell instruments without having to do so. Buyers are sufficiently satisfied with the sound as it is.

[brandall10]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

They don’t need to. They sell instruments without having to do so. Buyers are sufficiently satisfied with the sound as it is.

Again, in the case of Authentics or higher end CS shops, it really makes little sense to me to advertise hand carved braces but not tap tune when the extra time/effort is so minimal.

Fender for instance will hand-wind PUs by a well-known person for like a $400 up-charge even though tonal benefits are dubious, as well they were included in many dealer lines as part of the package. That literally takes an hour to do from someone who has name brand recognition. i have a set of 'Abby' PUs which go for like $800 on the aftermarket since she retired 5 years ago. That guitar originally sold for $2600 in 2010 with a 'built in' $440 upgrade.

Obviously consumers of these instruments care to some degree otherwise threads like this wouldn't exist.

[ManyMartinMan]

As has been mentioned in many other threads, it's not the hand-carved braces, or the top-tuning or the unique shape, or the ..... it's the total package that, in the end, makes a guitar sound like a guitar you want to play. A builder that carefully selects her/his woods and employs specific build practices that include the above and other techniques will build a desirable instrument that some will pay many thousands for. So, the braces are a part of a total package that make a specific builder, or company, highly playable and wanted.

Now in respect to used or older instruments, many luthiers can, and do, reshape braces to reshape a guitar's sound. Bryan Kimsey does it all the time with clear benefits. I don't think you could go in with any power tool after a guitar is built and do that. For these instruments I see a clear benefit to hand-shape braces to change tonal properties of an instrument.