K&K Trinity without the K&K Preamp?

[PANDAPANDELO]

I just installed the K&K Trinity into my Martin HD28, and I confess that it never sounded that good before. The K&K alone is already great, but the mic just adds what might be missing in the sound. Just... perfect!

The little preamp with the gain, volumes, and 3 band EQ is great, too, and I don't have any problem with it, BUT... I just hate 9v batteries. Any kkind of batteries. I'm ok to work with phantom power and DC Wall stuff, but I hate batteries. I wanted to know if there's a way to work with the Trinity (Pure Mini and Mic) without the K&K Preamp. At the moment, the other preamp I have is a LR Baggs session DI. I know I wouldn't have the option to blend the signals... but if it were 50/50, I'd be ok. I set the blend at 60/40 (mic/pure mini)... so it would be similar.

In the future, I wanna get myself a Grace Design Felix2 to work as a mixer (guitar in one input and vocal mic into the other)... so it would be nice to work my way to that.

Another thing I have is a Touchmix 8, and it provides phantom power. Maybe, I could have a stereo cable with Y mono ending, and send the signal to the Touchmix... but would the 48v phantom power from the Touchmix work on it?

Anyway... thank you guys for all the help! I really apreciate if you could share your brainz on it.

Obrigado,

Rodrigo.

[Doug Young]

This gets confusing, but there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

Your K&K mic does not take "phantom power", it takes "bias power", it's a different powering scheme. You can't just plug it into an XLR jack with 48 volts of phantom power. It is possible to create a conversion circuit to convert 48 volts balanced phantom power to the bias power the mic needs. So using your QSC board directly would take a custom adaptor.

I don't have a K&K mic these days, but from what I understand ( I think Larry Jacobson has reported more on this), K&K has made their mics so that they will shut down if they receive more than 5 volts. Most preamps, like Felix, provide 9-12 volts. K&K has basically tried to be sure their mic only works with their preamp. Again, you could create some kind of voltage divider circuit, and that shouldn't be hard, but it's an extra step and a little bit of custom circuitry to make that happen.

So bottom line is that you'd need a small amount of custom electronics involved to use either your QSC or another preamp. It's minor stuff, just some resistors, etc, to form a voltage divider, but you need to know what you're doing to make it work. Easiest thing is to just use the K&K preamp.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This gets confusing, but there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

Your K&K mic does not take "phantom power", it takes "bias power", it's a different powering scheme. You can't just plug it into an XLR jack with 48 volts of phantom power. It is possible to create a conversion circuit to convert 48 volts balanced phantom power to the bias power the mic needs. So using your QSC board directly would take a custom adaptor.

I don't have a K&K mic these days, but from what I understand ( I think Larry Jacobson has reported more on this), K&K has made their mics so that they will shut down if they receive more than 5 volts. Most preamps, like Felix, provide 9-12 volts. K&K has basically tried to be sure their mic only works with their preamp. Again, you could create some kind of voltage divider circuit, and that shouldn't be hard, but it's an extra step and a little bit of custom circuitry to make that happen.

So bottom line is that you'd need a small amount of custom electronics involved to use either your QSC or another preamp. It's minor stuff, just some resistors, etc, to form a voltage divider, but you need to know what you're doing to make it work. Easiest thing is to just use the K&K preamp.

Hi Doug & Rodrigo…
I don't believe I ever referenced 5 volt limits. K&K lists on their site are confusing. I think they need to clarify either their ad copy or their specs on the Silver Bullet mics.

Here was where I found the main source of specs on the mic on K&K's site… Silver Bullet mic - CliCk

They list the power range as +5-+9 volts, or a 9 volt battery in one place, and then refer to 12-48V phantom for an XLR OUT-ONLY version. But there is no need to have 48 volt phantom on an XLR output, right? Perhaps they mixed copy from a couple different mics or preamps. And I had to do some serious digging on their site to come up with the things I found.

My understanding is (in March 2021) if you exceed 9 volts to the Silver Bullet (Trinity) mic, it will shut itself down.

If I'm wrong on this, someone please comment on the right stats for the limits.

I have only older versions of the K&K Internal mics [I](2005-2008 versions…).

I own 4 guitars with luthier installed K&K equipped dual source rigs. I now use a ToneDexter (which only uses the Pure Mini), and all the originally installed mics are still in my guitars.

I plan to leave them in my main two guitars, and and have my tech transplant one (along with a K&K Pure mini) into my son's new Guild F-40. I will also give him one of my Raven Dual Source preamps. A solid live-rig for sure.

Who knows where the last mic will end up? It's like a spare tire…

And I have powered (long term…as in years) my internal Silver Bullet mics with as much as 18 volts without issue. I suspect K&K created an artificial safety limit (my words not theirs) which limits their use with third party preamps.

Dual source preamps currently owned, and power supplied by each…

• Raven PMB I & Raven PMB II - +12 volts continuous power
• DTAR Solstice - +15 volts continuous power
• K&K Belt pack - +9 volts continuous power
• I bought a Headway EDB-1 and had it wired to accept dual source input - +18 volts continuous power. I used it for over a year, but sold it because of a single EQ adjusting both channels (mic & pickup) at once.

Hope this adds to the info…


Doug - you mentioned some great deals on third party internal small mics, right? Would you please remind us what they are/were? Thanks…

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug & Rodrigo…
I don't believe I ever referenced 5 volt limits.

....

My understanding is (in March 2021) if you exceed 9 volts to the Silver Bullet (Trinity) mic, it will shut itself down.

Sorry, I apparently mis-remembered. Not sure where I got 5 volts from then if it wasn't you - however, Felix puts out 12 volts, so if the limit is 9, that one still won't work.

[PANDAPANDELO]

First of all, thank you guys for those tips! It really helps!

I'd like to know more about those other internal microphones that might work in this dual source pickup system. If you guys could give me some tips, that'd be awesome! It would be perfect if it didn't need any kind of special 9v batteries and just works passivelly (if that even exists...), or with a simple 48v phantom power.

Thank you, guys!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[*]I bought a Headway EDB-1 and had it wired to accept dual source input - +18 volts continuous power. I used it for over a year, but sold it because of a single EQ adjusting both channels (mic & pickup) at once.[/LIST]

Off topic - apparently this has been fixed (and I think you mean the EDB-2?) they have a new version with EQ for each channel. Looks quite nice! Some other features added as well.

Doug - you mentioned some great deals on third party internal small mics, right? Would you please remind us what they are/were? Thanks…

Now I'm not sure what you're referencing :-) I've been using Audix L5Os, $200 new, so much cheaper than a DPA 4061 ($500) and much easier to work with. I've also picked up mics on ebay for a fraction of the cost, I once got a set of 3 DPA 4061s for $150, and the seller threw in a Sennhesier MKE-2 along with them. But you can't count on that, and sometimes the used ones on ebay aren't up to spec. Sunnaudio has an inexpensive mic they sell along with the MS-2. It's supposed to just be to let people experiment with the MS-2 before they commit to a good mic, if I understand right, but reports are that it actually sounds quite good. Not sure if they sell them by themselves. There's always just cheap lapel mics, like Radio Shack has/had...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO

It would be perfect if it didn't need any kind of special 9v batteries and just works passivelly (if that even exists...), or with a simple 48v phantom power.
!

The only kind of mic that would work passively would be a dynamic mic, and they tend to be large. The tiny guitar mics are all electret mics, and most use bias power, not balanced 48 volts phantom power. Even if you did find a mic that worked with phantom power, that's a 3 wire scheme, so you'd need 3 wires for the mic going into your guitar, plus 2 wires for the pickup (shared ground, so you need shield+3 wires.) So you'd either need 2 jacks or a TRRS plug/jack, which does not seem to exist. Some people do go crazy and put extra jacks in, I've even seen XLR jacks in guitars. Another option is the DPA 4099, which attaches outside your guitar. It's actually an electret mic as well, but comes with a 48 volt XLR adaptor, so you just plug it into a mixer.

But really, the standard TRS plug/jack with a standard electret guitar mic (like the K&K) works very well, unless you're going for a really exotic system. You say your system sounds good now, right? Why not stick with it?

[PANDAPANDELO]

It sounds great, Doug! The thing is that I wanna a better preamp (in my case, the Felix2), and I wanna to work with some mic that would work with it. If it feeds 12v, then I'll try to find out some mic that works with that! Another thing is that I'd like to use one channel only for the dual source (I don't know if that would work), and leave the other for my vocal mic, and use it like a mixer.

I'll try to work on that!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO

It sounds great, Doug! The thing is that I wanna a better preamp (in my case, the Felix2), and I wanna to work with some mic that would work with it. If it feeds 12v, then I'll try to find out some mic that works with that! Another thing is that I'd like to use one channel only for the dual source (I don't know if that would work), and leave the other for my vocal mic, and use it like a mixer.

I'll try to work on that!

With the kinds of setups you're trying, you need 2 channels for the pickup and mic, 1 each. You can "pre-blend", tho. Like run your pickups into the K&K preamp, then the K&K into 1 channel of a Felix leaving the other for the mic. The very few dual source systems out commercially, usually blend right on the guitar, like the Anthem, and some of the Fishman systems, so those have a preamp/blender in the guitar. But your separate passive pickup and mic needs two channels, one of which provides power for the mic. Another approach is Felix for the pickup+mic, then your vocal mic just goes into your QSC.

Mics I have used with Felix include the DPA 4061, Audix L5O, and Sennheiser MKE-2.

[BluesKing777]

Last year, I ordered a K&K Trinity installed by my luthier and I meant the outboard preamp Pro system but when I went to pick my guitar up, he had ordered the wrong unit - installed was the full K&K Trinity Onboard system. It has the preamp, battery, dual volume controls, gain, EQ all inside my guitar! Not what I ordered, way more expensive but one play and I could hear how terrific it sounded. And the blending is done onboard > mono guitar lead out.....


BluesKing777.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Sorry, I apparently mis-remembered. Not sure where I got 5 volts from then if it wasn't you - however, Felix puts out 12 volts, so if the limit is 9, that one still won't work.

Hi Doug…

I mis-remember all the time (and have an excuse…I'm 72 yrs old). If I did say that, I was wrong.

It's hard to track back (because posting on this topic was fast-n-furious), so if I can find better data, I'll post again.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Off topic - apparently this has been fixed (and I think you mean the EDB-2?) they have a new version with EQ for each channel. Looks quite nice! Some other features added as well.

Hi Doug…Yes it was remedied in the latest model, and the inventor & I had numerous 'debates' about this early on, and he emailed me a few months ago and admitted players 'need' separate EQ.

In my case it's too late, but I'm glad he is listening to customers.

And mine was the original EDB-1…I took this pic on Day 1.

It was/is the size of a ParaDI with two channels (and Class A if that's important).

Originally Posted by Doug

Now I'm not sure what you're referencing…

I once got a set of 3 DPA 4061s for $150, and the seller threw in a Sennhesier MKE-2 along with them. But you can't count on that, and sometimes the used ones on ebay aren't up to spec.[/QUOTE]

This was the ones I was referring to.

I always wanted to install a Joe Mills (handbuilt) and he quit building them!!




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[jamison162]

External two-channel preamp options that will power the K&K Trinity system (from least $ to most $):

1) K&K Trinity Pro (no FX loop, no DI) - $158 - https://kksound.com/products/trinitypropreamp.php

2) LR Baggs Mix Pro (Beltclip, no FX loop, no DI) - $169 - https://www.lrbaggs.com/preamps-di/g...coustic-preamp

3) NV Tone Model Duo (rechargeable like a cell phone, no FX loop, no DI) - $279 - https://www.thomannmusic.com/nv_tone...htm?ref=mobile

4) RedEye Twin (FX loop and DI) - $295 - https://www.fire-eye.com/new-page

5) Headway EDB-2 H.E. (FX loop and DI) - $345 - https://www.headwaymusicaudio.com/pr...h-e-pre-order/

6) K&K Quantum Blender (FX loop and DI) - $352 - https://kksound.com/products/quantumblender.php

7) Sunn Audio MS-2 (FX loops and DI) - $775 - https://sunnaudio.com/products/custo...stereo-pre-amp

8) Schertler Yellow Blender (FX loop and DI) - $830 - https://www.schertler.com/en_US/musi...yellow-blender

9) Grace Design Felix/Felix II (FX loops and DI) - $1075 - https://gracedesign.com/products/ins...plifiers/felix

Unfortunately, the new Radial PZ Pro only provides 48v on channel B and will blow up the K&K mic. Radial missed the ball with this unit by not including an option to power low voltage electret mics IMHO. Otherwise, it's a nice, full-featured two-channel preamp at a good mid-range price point.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug…Yes it was remedied in the latest model, and the inventor & I had numerous 'debates' about this early on, and he emailed me a few months ago and admitted players 'need' separate EQ.

They definitely have opinions. They're the ones, if I remember right, who had a 2-page rant in the manual about how evil internal mics are and why no one should use them.

And mine was the original EDB-1…I took this pic on Day 1.

Oh right, I think maybe the single channel was an EDM-1? Confusing model numbers....

I always wanted to install a Joe Mills (handbuilt) and he quit building them!!

I had a Joe Mills, I gave it to Bryan Sutton who was looking for one a few years ago. It was a good mic, tho seemed less magical than the reputation it had. The stuff you can't get anymore always seems better :-)

[GCWaters]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The stuff you can't get anymore always seems better :-)

Isn’t that the truth?!?!??