How much do you practice each day?

[Toby Walker]

Jackknife,

First off I have absolutely nothing to be jealous about, not a thing. Living the life of a successful musician, unlike your friend has been a pretty nice ride. I have my own health insurance, an IRA, pay all my bills and haven't been in debt in over 25 years. Even get to blow a bit on new instruments. All as a musician. Living large is the best revenge... especially to those who perpetuate the myth that the majority of musicians are barely getting by. It's not the easiest way to make a living but then again I doubt there is ANY easy way of making a living no matter what field someone is in.

I owe this to talent and the time it takes to develop that talent even further by constantly learning new techniques and improving ones stagecraft. That is one definition of practice. The other definition of practicing is maintaining a vast repertoire and keeping ones chops up.

It is only through those two forms of practice that a certain type of magic happens on stage during my performances. I, as others, call it "being in the zone." It's the play in playing and the creation in creating. Some can reach those heights and some cannot. I feel blessed that I can but only due to the work AND talent that it takes to get there. Do I rely ONLY on talent? Of course not and trust me when I say I have absolutely no jealousies towards those that rely solely on talent with practice. Then again.. I've yet to meet ANYONE like that.

Have I ever had the feeling, as you put it, of being really great at something, far above my peers, with little or no effort? You must be kidding. How many Mozarts, Einsteins or Michelangelos or other RARE exceptions that probably never have to work at anything to be great do you honestly think exist in the world??

Am I jealous of Mozart, Einstein or Michelangelo? That's about as ludicrous as your saying Eric Clapton has limited talent.

I will say that I've known since I was as child that I had an inclination and a predisposition towards music... but no more then another person may have for things mechanical or visually artistic. I will also say that for me playing music is something that I must do in order to survive as a human being. I am and have always been compelled to do so.

[offkey]

I don't differentiate between practice or play or just noodling, If I have the time I will spend 1 to 4 hours each day with the guitar. Playing for fun, working through one of several music books, working on a dvd course or just noodling. I will never play professionally or perhaps even in front of any group at all, and I don't care if I ever do. I practice guitar because it is my delight to do so. I remember hearing an old cross country skier say "when I am skiing I am happy", so it is with me and practicing guitar. When I am touching my guitar I am happy.

[Deacon Blues]

Originally Posted by offkey

I don't differentiate between practice or play or just noodling, If I have the time I will spend 1 to 4 hours each day with the guitar. Playing for fun, working through one of several music books, working on a dvd course or just noodling. I will never play professionally or perhaps even in front of any group at all, and I don't care if I ever do. I practice guitar because it is my delight to do so. I remember hearing an old cross country skier say "when I am skiing I am happy", so it is with me and practicing guitar. When I am touching my guitar I am happy.

And that is GREAT!

And to bring it back to a point of reference, are you getting better from this practice that you are working on? I would imagine you have gotten MUCH better than had you not practiced.

If they invent a 'talent' gene, I'll take that injection!

[Jackknifegypsy]

D,

Let me ask this:

If you have a burning passion, a consummate desire that lives within you to be a brain surgeon do you really believe that that passion, dedication, focus, coaching, support, and tons of other stuff would get you to, say, pass the Pre-med courses in Organic Inorganic Chemistry, Physics, the Trig and calculus, the biology, and other prerequisites absolutely necessary and with the best grades, to be considered by any medical school?

Do you think that anyone can accomplish anything without possessing certain level of native I.Q. ? Could a rated 100 IQ person become an Air Force pilot? A Thunderbird? A shark lawyer in complicated foreign trade law?

Can a person with average energy, mental powers, but possessing a burning desire to, become a Certified Public Accountant? Could he/she pass the rigorous mind bending exams in Law or Public Accountancy, Engineering, Architecture, Finance, and any other field you can think of?

I have spent 30 years in the Professional Employment field, from entry level thru CEOs. I have seen up close, and for year after year that obsessive dedication, hard work, burning desire, and all the qualities you list come to nothing in the face of talented individuals that put in a third of the effort.

The Majority, 80% or more do not make it no matter how hard they have worked, or how much passion they have.

We come at it from two perspectives, and looking around at this stage and seeing those in my grade school and high school who were Valedictorians, top students with high IQs and talent have far outpaced ALL of their then peers. I can't be the only one on the planet to have seen this.

In the face of all this proof, watching thousands if not tens of thousands of boys who wanted to become Computer Scientists desperately, on fire, but could not master even the most basic Quantitative math courses, and the disappointments in their parents eyes, realizing that their kids are not going to ever make a fortune in Software is an eye opener. Consulting with people I put to work early in their careers who wante me to sit down with their kids and persuade them to take the courses they would need to get into Law school because they had a passion for being lawyers, the hardest part telling the parents that their kids did not possess what was needed to succeed at it.

As I stated a while back in this thread there is nothing that would convince me that hard work pays off, without the requisite amount of talent to go with it, and the ratio becomes inverse, the more talent the less work needed to excel. More work, with less talent is going up against talent and dedication. No contest.

But I've given up on trying to argue the point. My passion about this is limited because the parents of those kids who wanted me to get their kids to take on Computer Science courses, insisted on sending their kids to schools that offered that major, and when they came out with 2.0 averages, wondering why they didn't have any job offers, was still not enough to convince them that all that hard work their kids put in to obtain only "C's" was a total waste of whatever talents the kids did possess, that remained unexplored. And those were the majority of the students, not the exceptions.

[Jackknifegypsy]

Presicely. You are 'playing'. You couldn't have said what I've been trying to say, better.

[Jackknifegypsy]

"Compelled to do so". With some, likely a lot, of native Talent.

I've been saying this for a week.

Since neither of us are jealous, maybe we can drop that from the motive I have for emphasizing that, Being Compelled to create music, and having the Talent for it, and working at it, are a very potent combination?

[Jackknifegypsy]

Offkey,

not differentiating between them does not mean there isn't a vast difference among them.

I know when I'm doing any of those and feel completely different doing each one and as you say, they are all just great by me.

And I recognize my limits.

[Deacon Blues]

Originally Posted by Jackknifegypsy

D,

Let me ask this:

If you have a burning passion, a consummate desire that lives within you to be a brain surgeon do you really believe that that passion, dedication, focus, coaching, support, and tons of other stuff would get you to, say, pass the Pre-med courses in Organic Inorganic Chemistry, Physics, the Trig and calculus, the biology, and other prerequisites absolutely necessary and with the best grades, to be considered by any medical school?

Do you think that anyone can accomplish anything without possessing certain level of native I.Q. ? Could a rated 100 IQ person become an Air Force pilot? A Thunderbird? A shark lawyer in complicated foreign trade law?

Can a person with average energy, mental powers, but possessing a burning desire to, become a Certified Public Accountant? Could he/she pass the rigorous mind bending exams in Law or Public Accountancy, Engineering, Architecture, Finance, and any other field you can think of?

I have spent 30 years in the Professional Employment field, from entry level thru CEOs. I have seen up close, and for year after year that obsessive dedication, hard work, burning desire, and all the qualities you list come to nothing in the face of talented individuals that put in a third of the effort.

The Majority, 80% or more do not make it no matter how hard they have worked, or how much passion they have.

We come at it from two perspectives, and looking around at this stage and seeing those in my grade school and high school who were Valedictorians, top students with high IQs and talent have far outpaced ALL of their then peers. I can't be the only one on the planet to have seen this.

In the face of all this proof, watching thousands if not tens of thousands of boys who wanted to become Computer Scientists desperately, on fire, but could not master even the most basic Quantitative math courses, and the disappointments in their parents eyes, realizing that their kids are not going to ever make a fortune in Software is an eye opener. Consulting with people I put to work early in their careers who wante me to sit down with their kids and persuade them to take the courses they would need to get into Law school because they had a passion for being lawyers, the hardest part telling the parents that their kids did not possess what was needed to succeed at it.

As I stated a while back in this thread there is nothing that would convince me that hard work pays off, without the requisite amount of talent to go with it, and the ratio becomes inverse, the more talent the less work needed to excel. More work, with less talent is going up against talent and dedication. No contest.

But I've given up on trying to argue the point. My passion about this is limited because the parents of those kids who wanted me to get their kids to take on Computer Science courses, insisted on sending their kids to schools that offered that major, and when they came out with 2.0 averages, wondering why they didn't have any job offers, was still not enough to convince them that all that hard work their kids put in to obtain only "C's" was a total waste of whatever talents the kids did possess, that remained unexplored. And those were the majority of the students, not the exceptions.

First, I am not sure that I consider your '80%' statement as proof. That has been YOUR experience, nothing wrong with that. Life is certainly not black and white.

Do I think that anyone can do anything? Very open ended question, to be sure.

I do believe this: the people with the drive and passion who put in the hard work and practice and have the right plan and support will get miles ahead of those that don't.

Will they always hit the bulls eye and fly the F15? Perhaps not, but they may learn enough in the journey to feel satisfied, and perhaps find their joy in handling the mechanics of the plane, or teaching aeronautics.

My experience in life is that people usually (USUALLY) limit themselves or allow outside influences to dissuade them from being successful by non-support, negative criticism, lack of encouragement, lack of time to apply themselves, or anyone of numerous facets that could come into play.

I've had many, MANY jobs in my life. Most of them involved working with people and understanding their skill sets, motivations, etc. And what I have learned is that most people do not succeed at what they want to succeed about because they do not have a solid plan on how to achieve their goals or don't have enough drive to accomplish the work necessary to attain a level of success.

I do, however, go back to what I believe is the main point of this thread - practice will get you a lot further than not practicing, and even those who have 'made it', still in one form or another practice their craft to stay sharp and progress.

All of the musical gods that were mentioned all had two things in common: the drive to sacrifice and attain their dreams AND practice - and both of these were prevalent BEFORE and AFTER they 'made it'. If those two ingredients were missing, their success would be illusive.

[Toby Walker]

Jackknife,

I can understand the point you are trying to make in saying that hard work alone is the not the end all in achieving greatness.

However, imagine having talent AND the ability to dedicate the majority of ones time to furthering that greatness. Many people of merit have done just that and it's seems a shame to accuse them of having limited talent for doing so. There's simply something negligent is throwing such an accusation around.

[Jackknifegypsy]

D,

Musical gods are manufactured. They are not the be all and end all, or even a close measure to the truly great.

Even one of the Beatles, I think it was Lennon, who said, "We won't last 2 years", because of their limited talents and formulaic approach. Artistically he was dead on. (no bad pun intended). He didn't then know the power of mundane.

Marketability for simple chord progessions, the D chord compositions, or Rap beats is universal and omnipotent. And ordinary.

Glenn Gould, not so much, Phillip Glass, not so much. The list of them is in the millions more than likely.

There are far more talented unsung musicians, genuine artists, who have also dedicated their lives, nearly every waking moment to their art. And will always remain as Van Gogh, and others of immense talent, compulsion, drive, and skill did: Anonymous.

Toby:

Because one doesn't like to be told they have limited talent is a problem in their ego. There's one guy that has a Youtube instruction video that I ran into last month who actually thinks he is better than Stefan Grossman, and proceeds to show just how much he falls short of Stefan's talents, and performances. No amount of feedback is going to convince him he is a lesser light, by a huge amount. He's never going to give in to the fact that Grossman is a consummate musician, with extraordinary levels of achievement and if he were to play with this guy on a stage, would blow him away. Be like Hendrix and Dylan on stage. IF there is any doubt as to who is the better musician, Hendrix or Dylan (and I love them both) then discernment is out the window. I know who I'd rather learn from as far as the guitar goes, and alternately who I'd want to learn songwriting from.

I know though who I'm going to use to learn from, but he will go on thinking he is just great. Stefan was greater at a much younger age than this guy is now, and he will ever be. He's maxed out, his progress will be measured in microns. And he will think he is making great srtides. And that's o.k.

I knew my limits a long time ago, accepted them. The talents required are simply not there in sufficient quantity and no matter how hard I try my progress will be in microns as well. And as OFFKEY above says, it doesn't matter. He just enjoys his time with the guitar, his ego in complete synch with his abilities, his compulsions, and his continued willingness to improve (or not) as the fancy strikes him.

[Orfeas]

A lot and when I write I can stick to a melody or rhythm till 0300 am leave it go sleep and start again if my fingers are ok.
If I don't do that I cant do my everyday routine. I think its like addiction or something cause the moment that I am into its heavenly.