Can't learn to love tabs

[mmmaak]

A bit of a false dichotomy here. Why choose??

Use them both. Standard notation for information about timing and dynamics; the tablature below for a visualization of fretting-hand shapes and location of notes on the fingerboard.

There is even hybrid notation that, in my experience, is sufficient for most guitarists though it cannot display as much detailed information.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by mmmaak

A bit of a false dichotomy here. Why choose??

Use them both. Standard notation for information about timing and dynamics; the tablature below for a visualization of fretting-hand shapes and location of notes on the fingerboard.

Exactly, why make it a choice of either/or? Be good at both. I can sight read standard notation for piano and have to do so for classical guitar music. Sight reading simple things on the guitar from standard notation is one thing. Complicated instrumentals benefit from having that extra info that a combo of both standard notation and tab provide.

[Laird_Williams]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi CP…
I can read TAB, but don't.

Don't teach with it, or recommend it...a lot of times it's inaccurate, and it's not thorough.

I'd be careful of such generalizations. I am a huge fan of using standard notation and I teach my students with that as the primary tool - but tab has a significant amount of utility.

As for the "a lot of times it's inaccurate" statement - yes, the tabs you download for free from the internet tab sites often contain errors and omissions. If these people were doing things in standard notation, there would STILL be a lot of errors and omissions. That has nothing to do with the expressiveness or accuracy of the notation. It is a reflection of the transcribers who are producing the transcriptions. Same goes for some of the poorer-quality books out there.

And just what is "accurate" when even the guy who wrote or arranged the song never plays it quite the same way twice anyway? And aside from some questionable sources - just what is it about tab that is inherently inaccurate?

As for, "it's not thorough" - it can be extremely so. Again, don't confuse tablature in general with ascii-tab that you find on-line.

Both tab and standard notation carry information that the other does not. When I do transcriptions, I always do both. "Here is something that is pretty close to the way I play it, and this will give you a start" is the theme. I also use the richest options for tab. I have the rhythm in the tab, and the articulations. In fact, I have everything that is in the standard notation except that the notes on the staff are replaced by frets on the fretboard. It results in some redunant information, since much of the same information is carried on both staves (tab and standard) - but that actually eases moving your eyes between the two.

Finally - when you get into playing in 5 or 6 different tunings - getting to know the fretboard well enough to site read from standard notation for every different tuning is pretty daunting. Put your guitar in AGCGCD and site-read a piece written for that tuning sometime by just using standard notation. There are a few folks here who could do it. The rest of us, even those who have decades of experience reading standard notation, would have a lot of trouble with that. I started on classical music 37 years ago and am very comfortable with standard notation when in standard tuning - and I am getting there with DADGAD. But I use about 8 other tunings.

Not to mention standard notation's complete lack of graceful and easy to see way of supporting things like playing in 9th position yet using open strings at the same time, or having a legato span 3 notes, but NOT apply the legato technique to the middle one of the three, which manages to be stocatto because it is being played on a different string than the other two surrounding notes (Michael Hedges did this kind of thing all the time).

[Ryler]

I agree with Mmmaak. I started 2.5 years ago at age 46. Started exclusively reading standard notation. Tab, though, has allowed me to progress at a much more rapid rate. Were I younger, and had more aspirations as a musician, then I'd put more effort into standard notation. I'm only smooth with reading single note melody lines and reading note durations, etc. which I find very helpful when standard notation is above the tab.

But the extent to which notation slows me down when tab is absent isn't worth it for my goals. My 11 year old son, however, will become proficient with standard notation through his guitar teacher, who insists upon it. And I'm glad. Somehow I think one's age when starting this and the grandeur of one's goals may bear on the value of standard notation.

[15 Man]

QUOTE - CottonPickin said: "I just can't understand how learning tabs can enhance playing for someone who already knows standard notation."

From where I sit, that's the whole point. If you can already read music, you don't (or shouldn't) need tabs. Tabs are just a crutch to help you out if you can't read music. I can't read music; and wish I'd learned how. But at this stage it isn't about to happen. So tabs do help in that respect.

[Sage97]

The thread title led me to believe that this was a tab of a song called "Can't Learn To Love."

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by 15 Man

QUOTE - CottonPickin said: "I just can't understand how learning tabs can enhance playing for someone who already knows standard notation."

From where I sit, that's the whole point. If you can already read music, you don't (or shouldn't) need tabs. Tabs are just a crutch to help you out if you can't read music. I can't read music; and wish I'd learned how. But at this stage it isn't about to happen. So tabs do help in that respect.

Well I can read standard notation and tab and have learned many a involved song strictly from standard notation and others strictly from tab. Each has its advantages and disadvantages by presenting information in different ways. A combo of both I find the best for learning a new piece quickly and accurately (plus my ears if a recording is available).

[DupleMeter]

I am in no way saying that you shouldn't use TAB as your notation of choice. if that is what you are comfortable with, go for it. I am not trying to offend anyone or be elitist. Just understand that TAB is shorthand specific to the guitar that no other musicians will likely accommodate.

The fact of the matter is this: musician's read music (in standard notation). There is a reason it's been around for hundreds of years as the standard for every instrument and voice part.

If you don't care about that - grab all the TABs you want. You are probably not the type to have to show up to a pit band or pick up gig, sit down an hour before the show goes on to run through the music once before playing to a live audience. That's obviously not your bag...that's cool. If it were, you would see how useless TAB was, because no music director in the known universe is going to give you music in TAB. Most of the time they only know enough about guitar to stay within the instrument's range and hopefully not use compound chord notation when they actually mean alternate bass. And when the band leader hands you their "killer new bop" arrangement of Satin Doll, it's going to be in standard notation. Those are just facts of life as a musician (at least here in the NYC music scene - maybe it's different elsewhere).

And, when I am being paid by people to teach them music I would be cheating them if I didn't teach them to read standard notation. I'm preparing them to interact with other musicians. They need to know the language both spoken & written. I don't encourage TAB because in my 20 years of teaching experience it is a detriment to learning to read music.

I have students come in with books they buy that have both standard notation & TAB. 9 times out of 10 I look at the TAB and say - "no, don't play it there it's too hard to get to the next note...play it here". And that's what I mean about TAB telling you where to play and not what to play. The notation is right, in that they have the right note or notes. It's just the TAB is putting them somewhere illogical for the phrase or lick that makes it harder to play. And that's why I usually tape paper over the TAB. I'd rather rewrite the part an octave lower and then have them work up to playing it an octave up. guitar is a transposing instrument (one octave) so they should get used to it anyway.

So (and this is the last I'll say because I don't want to offend people or come off as elitist) - TAB has a purpose. The guitar is a vernacular instrument. You don't need to aspire to be a working "on call" guitarist. You can even gig out and play your tunes with your band without reading a lick of music. More power to you! But understand, tab is a shortcut that is not accommodated (or even tolerated) by most other musicians or music directors.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by HHP

Don't know what tab you use but what I use or write has the same rhythmic and timing indications as any notation I have used.

Samples?

If you show me yours, I'll show you mine!

If you mean something like this, yeah it's a good one, definitely one of the better ones.



Two of Us - The Beatles
4/4 time

G
e|----7-- ----7-- ----7-- ----0--|----7-- ----7-- ----7-- ----0--| (Paul)
B|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
G|7-------7---------------7------|7-------7---------------7------|
D|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
A|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
E|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|

e|------- ------- ------- -------|------- ------- ------- -------| (John)
B|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
G|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
D|-------------------------------|--------------------0---2---4--|
A|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
E|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|

e|----7-- ----7-- ----7-- ----0--|----7-- ----7-- ----7-- ----0--|
B|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
G|7-------7---------------7------|7-------7---------------7------|
D|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
A|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
E|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|

e|3---3-- ----3-- ----3-- ----3--|3---3-- ----3-- ----3-- 3---3--|
B|3---3-------3-------3-------3--|3---3-------3-------3---3---3--|
G|0---0-------0-------0-------0--|0---0-------0-------0---0---0--|
D|0---0-------0-------0-------0--|0---0-------0-------0---0---0--|
A|2---2-------2-------2-------2--|2---2-------2-------2---2---2--|
E|3---3-------3-------3-------3--|3---3-------3-------3---3---3--|

e|------- ------- ------- -------|------- ------- ------- -------| (George)
B|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
G|-------------------------------|-------------------------------|
D|--------5----------------------|--------5-------------------5--|
A|--------------5/7---5-5/7---5--|--------------------5-5/7------|
E|3------------------------------|3-------------5/7--------------|

e|3---3-- 3---3-- 3---3-- 3------|----3-- ----3-- 3---3-- 3---3--| (John)
B|3---3---3---3---3---3---3------|----3-------3---3---3---3---3--|
G|0---0---0---0---0---0---0------|----0-------0---0---0---0---0--|
D|0---0---0---0---0---0---0------|----0-------0---0---0---0---0--|
A|2---2---2---2---2---2---2------|----2-------2---2---2---2---2--|
E|3---3---3---3---3---3---3------|----3-------3---3---3---3---3--|
Two of us riding nowhere Spending some..
e|3---3-- 3---3-- 3---3-- 3------|----3-- 3---3-- 3------ 3------| (Paul)
B|3---3---3---3---3---3---3------|----3---3---3---3-------3------|
G|0---0---0---0---0---0---0------|----0---0---0---0-------0------|
D|0---0---0---0---0---0---0------|----0---0---0---0-------0------|
A|2---2---2---2---2---2---2------|----2---2---2---2-------2------|
E|3---3---3---3---3---3---3------|----3---3---3---3-------3------|

But 80% of them are not like that. Rather, they're like this (mediocre, at best, the other 10%):

Proud Mary - CCR

Intro:

E---0---0---0---x--------x---x---x---|---0---0---0---x--------x---x---x--|
B---1---1---1---2--------2---2---2---|---1---1---1---2--------2---2---2--|
G---0---0---0---2--------2---2---2---|---0---0---0---2--------2---2---2--|
D---2---2---2---2--------2---2---2---|---2---2---2---2--------2---2---2--|
A---3---3---3---0--------0---0---0---|---3---3---3---0--------0---0---0--|
e---x---x---x---x--------x---x---x---|---x---x---x---x--------x---x---x--|

E---0---0---0---x-------3-----1------|--1--1--0--1----2------------------|
B---1---1---1---2-------3-----1------|--1--1--0--1----3------------------|
G---0---0---0---2-------4-----2------|--2--2--2--2----2------------------|
D---2---2---2---2-------5-----3------|--3--3--3--3----0------------------|
A---3---3---3---0-------5-----3------|--3--3--3--3----x------------------|
e---x---x---x---x-------3-----1------|--1--1--0--0----x------------------|

Basic Rhythm:

D=Down stroke
U=Up Stroke

D U D U U D
E---2---2---x---2---2---x------------|-----------------------------------|
B---3---3---x---3---3---x------------|-----------------------------------|
G---2---2---x---2---2---x------------|-----------------------------------|
D---0---0---x---0---0---x------------|-----------------------------------|
A---x---x---x---x---x---x------------|-----------------------------------|
e---x---x---x---x---x---x------------|-----------------------------------|

I'm not against tabs at all or knocking them. But from what I've seen 90% of them are just plain crap and you have to weed through them. That's a real shame. If you can't take the time to tab something properly don't do it. I've seen some that have comments like "You'll have to figure the rest out yourself". What? I wish I learned to read standard notation better if only for the knowledge. Knowledge is good. The other benefit of tabs is the plentitude of them, when you find good ones.

[Laird_Williams]

I am in no way saying that you shouldn't use TAB as your notation of choice. if that is what you are comfortable with, go for it. I am not trying to offend anyone or be elitist. Just understand that TAB is shorthand specific to the guitar that no other musicians will likely accommodate.

The fact of the matter is this: musician's read music (in standard notation). There is a reason it's been around for hundreds of years as the standard for every instrument and voice part.

I don't think that most people here are saying that you should not bother to learn to read in standard notation. As you rightly point out, that is the "lingua franca" for musicians, and if we want to work and communicate with other musicians, learning it is imperative. You can also see certain relationships far more clearly in standard notation than in tab, which makes understanding what you are playing much easier. I also agree 100% that as teachers, we owe it to our students to teach them to read standard notation. But tab is important for guitar, and if you don't teach your students to make effective use of tab, then you are leaving out a large part of the practical application of the instrument, which is also a disservice.

For nearly all of those other musicians - with the exception of other string players, standard notation carries BOTH what note to play AND where to play it. This information is not generally present for guitar (except the occasional position marker, which has significant limitations). For nearly every other instrument, there is a (mathematically speaking) one-to-one and onto relationship between what you see on the notation and the key you have to press, or the valve set you have to close, or whatever. Also - when we play guitar, we are often playing in 4 voices, which further complicates things, since (with the exception of piano and perhaps other keyboard percussion) most of the other folks who use standard notation play in ONE voice ALL the time. Even vocalists reading from a multi-voice score are only reading and using one of the voices. It should come a no surprise that, to get the SAME level of information that other instruments get from exclusive use of standard notation, we can really only get from a combination of standard notation with something that supplements it.

As for tab being "inaccurate" because it does not always point to the most-efficient way to play something - remember that, especially as we progress as musicians, the choice of where to play a note is as much a function of timbre as it is of efficiency. If I do a score and use an inefficient location to play a not or two - please don't assume that I did that accidentally. Yes, it may be more efficient to play that note at some other spot - but the SOUND I want from the song may call me to play it at THIS spot instead. Efficiency is only a factor when timbre is not (as long as the timbre you want is not outright impossible to play - which is part of the reason that there is so much alternate tuning work out there for solo acoustic).

I repeat and emphasize my remark about alternate tunings. NO other instrument makes such extensive use of alternate tunings as the guitar. Learning to read standard notation fluently in a half-dozen alternate tunings is a lifetime of work. Having tab to go with standard notation when you play in an alternate tuning is a HUGE benefit - even for experienced players. In such cases, you need both.

[Laird_Williams]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Samples?

If you show me yours, I'll show you mine!

You'd need a PDF for mine. Ascii won't cut it. I'm not sure how to post a pdf here. Send me a PM with your e-mail, and I will gladly send you a sample of one of my own tunes.

[mmmaak]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Samples?

If you show me yours, I'll show you mine!

Here are two of mine (different transcriptions):





(DADGAD!)

Notice the hybrid notation in the lower row. Of course, there is a limit to how much information it can impart (on its own) but I think it is quite sufficient for most players.

[rick-slo]

Steve, your post does not sound elitist, just narrowly focused and out of context for most people. Studio musicians or those who otherwise wish to gig in some formal way with other musicians who are reading off of standard notation need to know the vernacular well. No one disagrees with that. However in those situations you are called on to play a part in the whole and your job may involve reading a chord chart or a melody line or in other words things that are quite doable up to tempo from either from pure sight reading or after a very short amount of practice time in the studio.
The majority of people on this forum when talking about how to go about learning some music are talking about learning stand alone instrumentals or guitar/vocal pieces that have a combination of melody and harmony and will be played pretty much verbatim to what the original artist recorded. Sight reading many of these at tempo (take the instrumental "Classical Gas" for example) is not what you’re concerned about in the studio or gig situations to which you are referring. Good luck if that is the case.
Your typical guitar player is working up a new tune or hours, days or weeks - whatever needed. Standard notation helps, tab helps and a combo of both helps even more. Then there is the important fact that many of the older fingerstyle tunes one may be interested in are only available in tab form (though much less so than in earlier years).
I would not want to discourage anyone from learning standard notation or tab as both are quite useful.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Laird_Williams

You'd need a PDF for mine. Ascii won't cut it. I'm not sure how to post a pdf here. Send me a PM with your e-mail, and I will gladly send you a sample of one of my own tunes.

Originally Posted by mmmaak

Here are two of mine (different transcriptions):






Notice the hybrid notation in the lower row. Of course, there is a limit to how much information it can impart (on its own) but I think it is quite sufficient for most players.

Now, that is definitely NOT what you find on the internet! Internet tabs are what I was referring to as not providing any kind of timing, tempo or rhythm structure. Yours are what you find published and for-pay on musicnotes.com and sheetmusicdirect.com, and in books. I'd call those a Rosetta Stone of sorts. Written one way to help you understand another way, like the original RS found in Egypt.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

Now, that is definitely NOT what you find on the internet! Internet tabs are what I was referring to as not providing any kind of timing, tempo or rhythm structure. Yours are what you find published and for-pay on musicnotes.com and sheetmusicdirect.com, and in books. I'd call those a Rosetta Stone of sorts. Written one way to help you understand another way, like the original RS found in Egypt.

Plenty of this available for free these days.
For instance http://www.acousticpower.com/