All right, who has had this problem before...

BrickGlass · #1 03-07-2013, 04:18 AM

Ever play a guitar and have a strange buzzing/vibrating/resonating sound going on if your finger isn't at the very front of the fret? A sound that comes if you move your finger just a tad towards the middle of the fret. Not quite like back buzzing (for those of you who know what that is), and not the sound of fret buzzing from a too low action. No, this sound is its own kind of weird. I bought a Cervantes (crossover II) and it had this happening on many frets on the A string. If I wasn't right behind the fret, it would sound very bizarre. So I tried some other Cervantes and noticed the same thing on some of them. After scouring the web for answers I found someone else who has heard and had to deal with this. Here is a quote from the article I found which was written by Paul Mcgill, who some of you may know as a builder of some mighty fine looking guitars:

"I had a classical guitar made by a notable maker in my shop once that would not stop buzzing. The frets were accurately aligned, and still it buzzed. This guitar was very lively and had great oscillation of its strings. After much time spent studying the problem it became clear that the noise disappeared if the note was played with the finger depressing the string right on top of the fret. If the finger was moved back even an 1/8th of an inch, the buzz reappeared. The strings had so much amplitude that the strings would accelerate right off the fret, causing a buzz even though everything was properly aligned. I raised the action, the buzz got worse. The owner said he liked bass wire on his guitars, so I installed huge bass wire in an attempt to eliminate the problem. I was skeptical, but after installing the larger wire, the noise was greatly reduced. It was still there if the player wasn't careful, but it was manageable."

So my question is have any of you had/heard this annoying problem and if so what did you do, if anything, to fix it?

dwalton · #2 03-07-2013, 07:32 AM

Folks will now throw all manner of this and that at you relative to the causes of this. You'll have to sort through all of that.

But, this issue has been discussed at length over on the Delcamp forum, and I think there have been posts about it on the Acoustic Guitar Magazine forum, Classical area. It's not about action height or nut slots or the usual suspects. I often experience this on the 4th (D) string, most notably on frets 2/3/4. Sometimes on the A string on those frets. The other strings never seem to do this.

I've only seen one classical that doesn't do it - it was a Kohno Pro. My Aparicio AA100 barely shows it. I've owned and played lots of other classicals that showed it pretty clearly.

The brand and tension of your strings can affect this, and often it's recommended that you put a bunch of twists into the D or A string. Sometimes it gets better after a string is stretched for a while, and sometimes it gets worse. Tension can make a difference too. Fretting right up against the fret really helps a lot.

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.co...litude#p822810

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.co...510841#p510841

dosland · #3 03-07-2013, 11:30 AM

Back in the day, my classical teacher just told me my fingers were in the wrong spot when my fretted notes buzzed. Fretting a note too far from the fret can also pull off the pitch, which he didn't appreciate either. I'm sure he wasn't too sad to see me move on to another city!

Liz_in_PA · #4 03-07-2013, 01:02 PM

Thanks for asking this. I've got the hum on D at F in one guitar and on the A string on the other. I now have a reason.

BrickGlass · #5 03-08-2013, 02:37 AM

dwalton those links were fabulous and had a wealth of information so thank you very much for posting them. I was especially amazed that someone had done their PhD thesis on such things. I'm glad I'm not the only one hearing strange things. I noticed one luthier called it chaotic vibrations and I found that interesting. I was closely watching the string of the problematic guitar and I could swear that the way it was vibrating looked very abnormal and actually seemed "chaotic" when compared to other fretted locations on that same string. Might be crazy talk but that is what it seemed like.

So has anyone tried the solutions put forth in those links and had success? I find this rather fascinating and incredibly frustrating. I'm looking to get a new nylon string guitar and now I'm going to go mad listening for very odd buzzing and vibrating. Maybe I should just stick to steel string guitars.

Pitar · #6 03-12-2013, 08:02 AM

I just experienced this but only when plugged. I do not hear it unplugged.

FurryToes · #7 03-17-2013, 07:51 AM

I am getting this - only after putting new strings on.
I found this post while searching for a solution.
I put on D'Addario EJ45C Pro-Arte Composites - and use an Admira Artista classical guitar - bought new.
And I never had this problem until putting the new strings on - which suggests it's something to do with the strings. Tension/flexibility/internal structure?

I have to put my finger about half-way down the fret before the problem starts appearing. But I understand your description.
For me, there's a hint ("undertone") of 2 notes being played at the same time. A semitone below the note being played (which is obviously awful).
It seems to me that the string is too "flexible" - that holding it down, at a distance from the fret, is not pulling it over the fret strongly enough and so it's half-buzzing, half-harmonic-sounding.

Livingston · #8 03-17-2013, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickGlass

Ever play a guitar and have a strange buzzing/vibrating/resonating sound going on if your finger isn't at the very front of the fret? A sound that comes if you move your finger just a tad towards the middle of the fret. Not quite like back buzzing (for those of you who know what that is), and not the sound of fret buzzing from a too low action. No, this sound is its own kind of weird. I bought a Cervantes (crossover II) and it had this happening on many frets on the A string. If I wasn't right behind the fret, it would sound very bizarre. So I tried some other Cervantes and noticed the same thing on some of them. After scouring the web for answers I found someone else who has heard and had to deal with this. Here is a quote from the article I found which was written by Paul Mcgill, who some of you may know as a builder of some mighty fine looking guitars:

"I had a classical guitar made by a notable maker in my shop once that would not stop buzzing. The frets were accurately aligned, and still it buzzed. This guitar was very lively and had great oscillation of its strings. After much time spent studying the problem it became clear that the noise disappeared if the note was played with the finger depressing the string right on top of the fret. If the finger was moved back even an 1/8th of an inch, the buzz reappeared. The strings had so much amplitude that the strings would accelerate right off the fret, causing a buzz even though everything was properly aligned. I raised the action, the buzz got worse. The owner said he liked bass wire on his guitars, so I installed huge bass wire in an attempt to eliminate the problem. I was skeptical, but after installing the larger wire, the noise was greatly reduced. It was still there if the player wasn't careful, but it was manageable."

So my question is have any of you had/heard this annoying problem and if so what did you do, if anything, to fix it?

Wow, interesting. I'm away from home at the moment, but will check my Cervantes Crossover when I get home later this week. I haven't noticed any buzzing before, but now I'm super curious.

BrickGlass · #9 03-18-2013, 02:15 AM

Let me know Livingston, I'm curious about whether it happens on yours or not myself.

dosland · #10 03-18-2013, 05:02 PM

Fwiw, I wasn't really kidding when I mentioned my old classical guitar instructor's admonition about this. If the string buzzes even when you're fretting the note "properly," then I suppose there must be an issue. But otherwise, at least for me, the buzzing is normally an issue of technique rather than technology. Maybe.

BrickGlass · #11 03-19-2013, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosland

Fwiw, I wasn't really kidding when I mentioned my old classical guitar instructor's admonition about this. If the string buzzes even when you're fretting the note "properly," then I suppose there must be an issue. But otherwise, at least for me, the buzzing is normally an issue of technique rather than technology. Maybe.

Buzzing isn't really the right word for this problem though. It is a strange resonating or abnormal vibration more than a buzzing. I very much don't think it has anything to do with technique. Did you click on the links posted by dwalton? Those links are discussing this problem and it is really interesting stuff, at least if you are a guitar nerd it is.

dosland · #12 03-19-2013, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickGlass

Did you click on the links posted by dwalton? Those links are discussing this problem and it is really interesting stuff, at least if you are a guitar nerd it is.

I'm fully willing to admit that my technique is bad enough that any further refinements to my instruments would be wasted time and money. But I didn't click the links, so I'll have to take your word for it, in this case. I'm more of a soccer nerd (and a university nerd, I suppose) than a guitar nerd, despite my presence on this forum from time to time...

Livingston · #13 03-20-2013, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickGlass

Let me know Livingston, I'm curious about whether it happens on yours or not myself.

Finally home from my business trip...good to be home.

I played my Cervantes Crossover II tonight. Really tried hard to see if I could get it buzz. Fortunately, everything seems fine. Even if I place my finger far from the fret, I don't get a buzzing sound.

Good luck solving your issue. I hope you can resolve it without having to sell your guitar. I really love my Cervantes so I hope it works out for you.

Best regards,
Darryl