Most overrated tonewood?

[Goodallboy]

Overrated tonewood.........What's next? A thread on "what's the most overrated tuners"? "The most overrated glue"?

Geeze.......Let's grind our axes on something that makes a bit more sense.

[Twelvefret]

To the OP, it depends on what you are after tonally. I will assume your reference is to red spruce since there is not such thing as Adirondack spruce.

For red spruce to respond well, similar constructs must be in place as with the pre War Martin guitars. In another thread, we learned that Martin did not build for tone after the 1940's, they built to protect Martin from warrantee claims.

If you could compare, side by side, a Sitka topped guitar and a red spruce topped guitar, you would hear a difference. To my ears, the Sitka will be more muted, soft, and the notes less distinct. I think it makes a better strummer.

For flat picking, the red tops can provide a easily heard, easily picked guitar in a crowd for an no amplified application. I have heard that the pre War Martins have their limitations when being recorded.

[lt20dbl]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

Overrated tonewood.........What's next? A thread on "what's the most overrated tuners"? "The most overrated glue"?

Geeze.......Let's grind our axes on something that makes a bit more sense.

"Overrated' threads do serve a purpose. All the people who do not have whatever it is that is said to be overrated, feel better when they read it.

[icy_wind500]

Brazilian rosewood is not mentioned yet?

[DRodgers]

Originally Posted by ikravchik

People say that Adirondack sounds great once it's "broken in" and opens up. I don't know how long I need to wait. To me it's a bit like paying extra for a Corvette, but the dealer telling you it will only go up to 60 mph in the first couple of months.

My slope is now over a year and a half old. It is still "breaking in". You have to work it at first, but over time it wakes up quicker. You could have read any thread on Adi and it would have told you that. When you buy a guitar, you have to not only invest your money, but the time that it takes to get familiar with the guitar and the guitar to naturally mature. I will disclose that my slope sounded awesome on day one. It is just that it sounds better now. I can't wait to see in another five, ten years. Be patient, it will come around.

[B Chas]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I have ONE adirondack topped guitar, identical to one of the sitkas apart from an additional sunburst.

These make a fairly good comparison. So I did :



.

Nice and especially on point for this discussion. Thanks.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by ikravchik

In my opinion it's Adirondack spruce. I have heard a lot about it's coveted place in guitar building, it's history and its hefty price.

Through personal experience I have come to a conclusion that Adirondack is really a one trick pony, it works well only with heavy plectrum picking. I recently got a custom Taylor 514ce with Adi top and bracing (yes, I bought into the hype). Because of its stiffness or as Bob Taylor likes to put it "springiness" it sounds very mellow when finger picked - the tone is very round, not many highs or lows. The same carries on when played with a softer wooden pick. The only time when this guitar shows it's full tonal spectrum is when I hit it with a 1.20mm plastic pick. Then it really growls with a cool natural overdrive and reverb. So while the guitar shines in that aspect it falls short on versatility. In this case the humble Sitka is much more diverse.

Another overrated tonewood in my opinion is Koa. I've played some really nice guitars with it (just today I played a really beautiful Kronbauer at Guitar Rodeo), but I've also played some duds that sounded very mediocre. For the luxury price tag I think Koa doesn't always deliver.

Adirondack is not for everyone, just as no tone wood is for everyone. It's not better than Sitka Spruce, it's just more expensive to obtain and sounds different. The way you play the guitar and the style of music you will play on it (if you sing your vocal range may also play a factor with respect to the overall balance you're going for) these are things to care about. Buy an all solid wood guitar built with high quality components and a good warranty and you have a Pro grade instrument (currently entry point is about $600 for offshore built and $1300 or US built). Once you get past that it's much less about quality it's more about ornamentation and tonal preference, the later being highly subjective and context sensitive to what you'll be doing with the instrument.

This is why we have so many pairings of body styles, tone woods, neck radius's, nut widths, etc... Just because one combination happens to cost $6,000, $10,000, etc vs $1600 does not make it a better instrument for YOUR music. In fact that $6000 guitar could make you sound worse.

I think James Taylor is a great example of this. I prefer James Taylor's tone with his vintage Gibson J-50. Several years ago he switched to a high-end Olson guitar. His Olson is much brighter which which seems to have made James alter his vocal stylings to compete a bit more with it.

It was hard to get good live recording in the late 70s but here's one he did in studio for the BBC. You can hear those trademark Gibson round shoulder undertones. It's creates a calm lake for his baritone voice to sail on.



Contrast that with his much more expensive Olson, the guitar that has become his main instrument of choice these days. The guitar's tone is much brighter which puts him as a vocalist in a situation where he needs to alter his tone to complete. I love the way James Taylor sounds in the earlier video I really don't care for what he's doing in this one.


Yes, he's much older now but James Taylor is a folk singer, when taken care of the voice doesn't degrade over time. In fact over time it gets better when good technique is used (Just listen to Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen today vs their early material for reference to voices sounding better with age).

Regarding most overrated tonewood?
Brazilian Rosewood without question. Worth what it cost before the ban, but not what it commands today. It's over inflated for it's collect-ability not because it's 50% or even 5% better than lower cost alternatives.

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

Overrated tonewood.........What's next? A thread on "what's the most overrated tuners"? "The most overrated glue"?

Geeze.......Let's grind our axes on something that makes a bit more sense.

The sad thing, there probably will be these exact threads in the months to come. By the way, my dog firmly believes that the "Most Underrated Glue" is hot hide glue....I mean is there anything better than a simmering pot of melted animal parts?

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

.......Let's grind our axes on something that makes a bit more sense.

good one!!!

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by ikravchik

People say that Adirondack sounds great once it's "broken in" and opens up. I don't know how long I need to wait. To me it's a bit like paying extra for a Corvette, but the dealer telling you it will only go up to 60 mph in the first couple of months.

I can't quote scientific evidence but I do believe that I have heard from many that Adi takes a lot longer to "open up" than , say sitka.

The next question is "how long?"

Sitka - some months and then some years. (as long as it is played a lot).

Adi - Some years and then some more. (as long as it is played as above - but lots more).

N.b. That sunburst Ds1ASB was nine years old when I bought it two years ago, and judging by the dings and dents had been well used. I thought it sounded "nasal".


I put new strings last weekend - (I change 'em every two months) and played it on Tuesday and Wednesday and noticed that it was starting to sound really good to my ears, catching up with the 2008 sitka DS1.


BTW - someone mentioned that adi only sounds right with a thick pick.......?

Tell me what guitar sounds good with a thin one?

BTW - a 1.m/m Blue Chip Trangle will drive an adi top OK 'cos triangles (346)
shape have more mass than the teardrop (351).

Here is an extract from an article I wrote that has recently been published :

1. Thickness :
For beginners or for simple strumming, many use picks with a thickness of less than 1 m/m.
For flat-picking (Country, Americana, old-time, bluegrass) most opt for 1 - 2m/m thick ....picks.
For jazz (manouche and big band rhythm etc) and for bluegrass mandolin, pickers favour 2-3 m/m – i.e. very thick!

Hope that helps......and of course YMMV etc.

Originally Posted by ukejon

By the way, my dog firmly believes that the "Most Underrated Glue" is hot hide glue....I mean is there anything better than a simmering pot of melted animal parts?

Indeed! Jack seemingly has no interest in repairs involving Titebond or epoxy. Once the hide glue starts warming he becomes very keen on the art of luthierie.

[DesertTwang]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

The large majority of my instruments have sitka tops because I am old and poor.
However the guitars with sitka were built by an outstanding small factory maker and are a delight for me.

I have ONE adirondack topped guitar, identical to one of the sitkas apart from an additional sunburst.

These make a fairly good comparison. So I did :





.

How interesting! Thank you so much for posting this comparison video. To my ears, the spruce top just slaughters the Adirondack top. Which is interesting, because based on my extremely limited experience playing guitars with Adirondack tops, I wasn't impressed at all. Never heard a difference to a spruce top. Intuitively, I also would have voted for Adirondack as the most overrated tonewood, but my limited experience prevents me from making that claim.

I really like your picking, by the way!

[Teleman52]

i think collings actually sound better with sitka tops. They have a sort of strident tone thats sometimes made to sound TOO strident when paired with an adi top

[kydave]

Most overrated tonewood?

Mahogany as a top wood... hands down.

It has seen a resurgence of popularity since Martin introduced their inexpensive 15 Series (not to be confused with the old 15 models) in recent (relatively) years.

People have oohed and ah-ed over it's introduction as if a miracle wood.

They don't remember that it was never introduced for its tone... it was simply the way, at the time, Martin could make its absolutely cheapest guitar.

[Treenewt]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

All of them.

In my opinion, when it comes to instrument quality, we assign way too much importance to tonewoods, and not nearly enough to builder and instrument design.

I'm beginning to see the truth in this statement myself. Quality woods don't naturually produce a quality guitar. The builder/manufacturer and how they brace, sand and construct the body plays such a larger role than the woods. The woods contribute, but the builder makes the biggest difference IMHO.