Recording Acoustic Guitar and Voice through mixer

[slide496]

Hi All,

Someone sold me on a Mackie 402 mixer to connect to my Canon HDMF41 and I was wondering if anyone else has done that to add loudness to singing. The idea is that connecting a voice mic into the mixer and turning it louder, connecting a guitar mic into the mixer and setting the level lower, then connecting the mixer to the videocam the voice will be louder.

Being as the acoustic plays into the room louder than the voice, is a mixer going to be effective at all?

Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by slide496

Hi All,

Someone sold me on a Mackie 402 mixer to connect to my Canon HDMF41 and I was wondering if anyone else has done that to add loudness to singing. The idea is that connecting a voice mic into the mixer and turning it louder, connecting a guitar mic into the mixer and setting the level lower, then connecting the mixer to the videocam the voice will be louder.

Being as the acoustic plays into the room louder than the voice, is a mixer going to be effective at all?

Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you.

Getting the proper balance of things is what audio mixers are designed to do.

[slide496]

"If you put a microphone on the guitar and one on the vocalist and mix the two, often you’ll notice that you get some weird phasing effects. This is because some of the vocal is leaking into the guitar mic and some of the guitar is leaking into the vocal mic. "

http://www.recordingmag.com/resource...etail/158.html

The above are issues I have read, but perhaps this is a professional standard that doesn't apply. Thanks for your response, though Rick.

[Ty Ford]

although it may seem to be too obvious, sing louder, play quieter.

Here's a very good example. Three musicians, one of whom is singing, two mics, DONE!

https://soundcloud.com/tyford/living-will

Occasionally we get folks in a song circle who get a little nervous. This cuts down their singing volume and at the same time they overplay their guitars.

It's a nervous reaction.

Yes, people do double mic all the time, but as mentioned, then you run into phasing problems. Best solution I've seen/heard is to learn enough about mic placement and levels to do it yourself or find someone near you who knows how to do it right.

Here's an example shot here using overhead mics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_S3JwcPjg

Here's another example shot here; two guitar mics, one very small vocal mic over the ear of the the player on the right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM75uXsr0b4

Regards,

Ty Ford

[slide496]

Thanks for your input, Ty! All those singers can project though and the mics on the first clip are Audio Technica AT4080 ribbon mics, $999 each and connected to and playing out on what on those clips. So its a bit of "yeah right" YMMV.

Pretty familiar with Neil Harpe and a fan of his and find your selections of placement of mic examples interesting.

I've seen it before but it never sunk in (doh) the idea of overhead mic to isolate the vocal - I have tried a headset but didn't get on with it. My current solution is rodemic on video cam, and the vocal is through a shurem57 mic attached to an maudio interface that plays out to bose speakers which are set near the rode mic.

[Ty Ford]

[QUOTE=slide496;3590029]Thanks for your input, Ty! All those singers can project though and the mics on the first clip are Audio Technica AT4080 ribbon mics, $999 each and connected to and playing out on what on those clips. So its a bit of "yeah right" YMMV.

I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining the method. Two mics recorded through preamps set equally (or the stereo would never work) with no mixer. Do a little research on Blumlein Recording. You need two figure of eight mics to do Blumlein. But that was recording three instruments and a vocal. You can do two mic recording of a vocal and a guitar. Set them up with coincident capsules angled up and down rather than the more conventional left and right. Sing into one play into the other. It still goes back to what I was saying earlier; play softer/sing louder.

Pretty familiar with Neil Harpe and a fan of his and find your selections of placement of mic examples interesting.

Neil taught me how to finger-pick when he was 17 and I was 15.

I've seen it before but it never sunk in (doh) the idea of overhead mic to isolate the vocal - I have tried a headset but didn't get on with it. My current solution is rodemic on video cam, and the vocal is through a shurem57 mic attached to an maudio interface that plays out to bose speakers which are set near the rode mic.

That's very unusual. I imagine that results in a very roomy, indirect sound.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[KevWind]

Slide, I am still unclear as to what was actually the intention of the OP is ?

It is not clear exactly how ("connecting the mixer to the videocam the voice will be louder")
I am trying to visualize this and it almost sounds as if what you are actually doing is bringing in a third audio track (via the video cams audio output) . Is this what you are talking about? If so and if you are also recording video at the same that mic will in essence be a "Room" mic this will add a signal and potential volume but it would normally add to both the vocal and guitar so in and of itself not really accomplish adding volume to the vocal itself. Unless of course the video cam is positioned fairly high and considerably closer to the singers mouth than the guitar. Otherwise the difference in level between the guitar and vocal is still going to be a product of setting the faders on the two individual mics channels on the mixer ( the guitar mic and the vocal mic) and would be no different than just using the two individual tracks without the video cam track and (as you said) setting the vocal level a bit higher than the guitar, or I am I missing something?

[slide496]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Slide, I am still unclear as to what was actually the intention of the OP is ?

It is not clear exactly how ("connecting the mixer to the videocam the voice will be louder")

The intention was to see if anyone else was recording this way and if so any tips.

My main goal is to set up something reliable that I can hear vocals - any eq quality but no noise - so I am not fiddling inordinately and getting confused and discouraged.

You're not missing anything - it sounds like connecting two mics to a mixer and adjusting the levels (which is supposed to consolidate both mics) and feeding the mixer into the videocam is only going to work, if at all, if I set it up correctly with as per some of the tips that Ty has been kind enough to give me.

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

It still goes back to what I was saying earlier; play softer/sing louder.


Ty Ford

Its loud enough with a pocket recorder but over distance the guitar projects and I don't no matter how I palm mute the guitar - completely unanticipated.

Frankly I am glad the mixer comes with a return !

[MikeBmusic]

The mic in/on the camera is going to pick up a lot more room sound than if you close-mic the singer and guitar. If you can use a mixer and plug that into the camera, you are going to get the same result as if you recorded the audio into a DAW, then synched everything up in software.
You're not making things louder, you are balancing the sounds.

[slide496]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

If you can use a mixer and plug tha tinto the camera, you are going to get the same result as if you recorded the audio into a DAW, then synched everything up in software.
You're not making things louder, you are balancing the sounds.

Thanks, I'll see what problems I run into then when the mixer arrives and I set up the mics as best I can. I sing every day and I am hoping that I will catch up to the projection of the guitar. The guitar definitely did not project like it does now a year ago.

[MikeBmusic]

Not familiar with your camera, but many video camera's audio recording system have built-in compression, which will mute loud sounds. This can work against you with a dynamic instrument. I was recording (with a Sony camera and its built-in mic) me on guitar and singing and my wife playing a tambourine - the loud 'jangle' of the tamb was making the compression cut in and out and ruined the overall sound of the recording.

[slide496]

Thanks I will check out that then on my vixia HFM40. Currently I am using a rode shotgun mic on the camera - I have the hi pass filter on that so I need to find out what a high pass filter is, doh! I sent away for a mic stand adapter for it. I don't know which of my mikes are dynamic, Ill check that as well.

I added a home made shoetap box that I mike into an m-audio with a sure m58 and then its amplified and plays out through bose speakers - but speakers are not out in the open - they're in the desk compartment and I'm ok with the blend between the guitar and foot tapping. (That set up allows me to get the tap off the floor and my neighbor's ceiling - I won't have to stomp.)

The voice is the only component that isn't picking up over distance. I'm a little panicky about that!

[slide496]

I think I am going to try this device which accomodates 3 XLR mics and return the mixer - its from BH Photo. Just plug an xlr mic, adjust the sound level, plug it in the videocam - the output is an 1/8th jack and you're done. I might need one similar- and more expensive- with 48v phantom power,though

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=REG&A=details

[slide496]

I was going to go another route but I think this device I can make work.

The mixer, which is equipped 48v phantom power required a two prong rca to minijack and earphones - theres a jack for that and you need to wear earphones to adjust soundlevels. I was lucky and the guy at Sam Ash on 34th Street worked for Mackie and he marked off the diagram I brought in as to output and sound levels for each mic and the master channel so I should be good to go. It was under $200 for everything - mixer, output cable and Sampson earphones

Thank you to members at Acoustic Guitar Forum for giving me some ideas about positioning the mics.