Pros & Cons of a 12-fret guitar?

[zmf]

Originally Posted by mercy

13 freters are custom.
i know of no BRAND that makes a 13er

There is at least one out there made by Santa Cruz.

https://santacruzguitar.com/h13/

[Bill@TheFrettedBuffalo]

Originally Posted by mercy

13 freters are custom.
i know of no BRAND that makes a 13er

Huss & Dalton builds a wonderful 13 fret small bodied guitar, one of their 'Crossroads' series, a model named after Nick Lucas.

Want to talk about it? Reach out for us at the number or email below, or private message us here on the Forum!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Cool555

Hi Everyone. Why do guitarists get a 12-fret guitar instead of the usual 14-fret one? What are its advantages and its disadvantages?

Not sure if these are silly questions. Is it the luthier who decides the distance (measurements) between the first, second, third frets and so forth? I’ve noticed that longer scale guitars seem to have frets that are further apart than shorter scale guitars. Are the measurements between frets for all 25.5” scale guitars the same, across the board for all brands?

Thanks!

Hi C555

The main 'advantage' of a 12 fret guitar is it centers the bridge in the center of the lower bout, which some feel produces better tone than the off-center position of the bridge on a 14 fret instrument.

It has nothing to do with scale, so the frets (if the guitar has the same number) are the same size/width as a 14 fret. Longer scale guitars with the same number of frets as a shorter scale instrument, will have the frets a bit further apart.

12 fret guitars are often built to full-scale. And no, the luthier doesn't change nor determine the distance between frets. Math connected to the pitch we want to play does. It's not arbitrary…

Some may get carried away with it…in an attempt to produce guitars which play more in tune, but it's still based on math tied to pitch.







Fortunately - those didn't catch on.

And there is no single reason people pick a 12 fret over 14 fret…nor even just a couple reasons. Kind of depends on what they hear, believe and decide to apply to the next purchase.

[Cool555]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi C555



The main 'advantage' of a 12 fret guitar is it centers the bridge in the center of the lower bout, which some feel produces better tone than the off-center position of the bridge on a 14 fret instrument.



It has nothing to do with scale, so the frets (if the guitar has the same number) are the same size/width as a 14 fret. Longer scale guitars with the same number of frets as a shorter scale instrument, will have the frets a bit further apart.



12 fret guitars are often built to full-scale. And no, the luthier doesn't change nor determine the distance between frets. Math connected to the pitch we want to play does. It's not arbitrary…



Some may get carried away with it…in an attempt to produce guitars which play more in tune, but it's still based on math tied to pitch.



Fortunately - those didn't catch on.



And there is no single reason people pick a 12 fret over 14 fret…nor even just a couple reasons. Kind of depends on what they hear, believe and decide to apply to the next purchase.

Thanks ljguitar for that very clear explanation!

AGF rocks! Because they have guys like you here...

[Cool555]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Given that all of your current guitars are 14 fretters you would probably be more at home if you want to upgrade to a higher
end guitar by sticking with a 14 fretter. Tone differences are very iffy regarding 14 versus 12 fretters. Number of frets to the
body is a sure thing.

Thanks rick-slo ! I’ll bear what you say in mind...

[Mycroft]

I see that no one answered the question of "why" frets are at a certain place, but it is "physics" or "math." (Although true)

It is due to a combination of string length and tension. When a string is at a particular length and tension,it will sound at a particular frequency. Shorten the string while leaving the tension the same, and the frequency rises. A fret shortening the string. So you tune the string to a tension where the open (bridge to nut length) string sounds at a frequency corresponding to a specific western musical note, say "A." But if you then want to sound a "B" on that string you must shorten it. One way is with a finger, like with a violin or fretless bass. But the other way is to place a fret on the fretboard as a stop. (Also be aware that where frets are is not exact for every note/frequency because the distance between exact frequency points on different strings is slightly different. One of the photos above is of fretboards that try to do exact placement.).

"Standard" scale is around 25.4" while "short scale" usually 25" and under. Once upon a time, the under 25" short scale was actually standard. They went to longer lengths in pursuit of volume, same as bodies got bigger. Frets are closer together on short scales because there is less tension on the strings and the frequency points corresponding with notes are closer together.

There are actually frequencies that sound the entire length of the string; try running a slide up the string if you think me wrong. But only at specific points do the frequencies correspond with what we westerners think of as a musical "note." You can also change the note of a sounding string by "bending" it with your finger, which increases the tension.

A 14-fretter can have a standard or a short scale. So can a 12-fretter. Scale can go longer too. I have a lap steel with a 26.75" scale, and a baritone guitar with a 28."

12-fretters are different from 14-fretters usually in one of two ways: the bridge is moved down closer to the center of the lower bouts, the body is longer so it extends to the 12th fret instead of the 14th, or often a bit of both. It does change the tonal qualities. So does the scale length.

I have and like both 12 and 14-fretters, although all but one of my standard guitars is a short scale.

OMMV. There is no wrong answer.

TW

[opencee]

Sometimes I wish I had another 12-fret slothead. I'd hang it on the wall and just look at it. I think they are beautiful.

I've owned a couple, including a 12-string. They're long gone. I capo a lot, so I prefer the extra neck space of a 14 fret. Also, and I know there's disagreement on this, I hate to string them.


opencee

.

[HHP]

Lots of benefits to 12 fret guitars...

The longer wider body makes you look slimmer.

The placement of the tuning keys allows you to tune without showing off your underarm sweat stains

The slotted headstock lets you see if anyone to your left is about to throw something at you.

The slotted headstock also reduces wind resistance so you can play faster.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

....

But the other way is to place a fret on the fretboard as a stop. (Also be aware that where frets are is not exact for every note/frequency because the distance between exact frequency points on different strings is slightly different. One of the photos above is of fretboards that try to do exact placement.).

....

Not quite true, but close. If intonated properly, all the frets will be at the proper position to produce all 12 notes of the tempered scale. However, the tempered scale frequencies are slightly off relative to the natural scale which has whole numbers associated with their intervals. Since the tempered scale is not based on whole numbers, it sounds a little "off" to our ears. However, the modern tempered scale can be transposed and the natural scale cannot so the tempered scale is much better to use overall than the natural scale.

The other photos were of guitars made to other scales and I'm guessing at least one was made to be the natural scale. Of course, if you made a guitar using the natural scale, you'd need to retune it every time you changed key.

[Cool555]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I see that no one answered the question of "why" frets are at a certain place, but it is "physics" or "math." (Although true)

It is due to a combination of string length and tension. When a string is at a particular length and tension,it will sound at a particular frequency. Shorten the string while leaving the tension the same, and the frequency rises. A fret shortening the string. So you tune the string to a tension where the open (bridge to nut length) string sounds at a frequency corresponding to a specific western musical note, say "A." But if you then want to sound a "B" on that string you must shorten it. One way is with a finger, like with a violin or fretless bass. But the other way is to place a fret on the fretboard as a stop. (Also be aware that where frets are is not exact for every note/frequency because the distance between exact frequency points on different strings is slightly different. One of the photos above is of fretboards that try to do exact placement.).

"Standard" scale is around 25.4" while "short scale" usually 25" and under. Once upon a time, the under 25" short scale was actually standard. They went to longer lengths in pursuit of volume, same as bodies got bigger. Frets are closer together on short scales because there is less tension on the strings and the frequency points corresponding with notes are closer together.

There are actually frequencies that sound the entire length of the string; try running a slide up the string if you think me wrong. But only at specific points do the frequencies correspond with what we westerners think of as a musical "note." You can also change the note of a sounding string by "bending" it with your finger, which increases the tension.

A 14-fretter can have a standard or a short scale. So can a 12-fretter. Scale can go longer too. I have a lap steel with a 26.75" scale, and a baritone guitar with a 28."

12-fretters are different from 14-fretters usually in one of two ways: the bridge is moved down closer to the center of the lower bouts, the body is longer so it extends to the 12th fret instead of the 14th, or often a bit of both. It does change the tonal qualities. So does the scale length.

I have and like both 12 and 14-fretters, although all but one of my standard guitars is a short scale.

OMMV. There is no wrong answer.

TW

Thanks for your very elaborate explanation!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Cool555

Thanks for the very detailed explanation! I have a better picture now.

Just wondering, are you a luthier?

I am. I've built a wide variety of instruments but my efforts are concentrated on improving the design and construction of the open back banjo. I'm mainly a guitar player, but my passion is building innovative open backs.

For many years I maintained a website dedicated to supplying free and low cost information relating to musical instrument construction. Most of that site is available through the internet archive project:

http://web.archive.org/web/201603281...com/index.html

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by robj144

Not quite true, but close. If intonated properly, all the frets will be at the proper position to produce all 12 notes of the tempered scale. However, the tempered scale frequencies are slightly off relative to the natural scale which has whole numbers associated with their intervals. Since the tempered scale is not based on whole numbers, it sounds a little "off" to our ears. However, the modern tempered scale can be transposed and the natural scale cannot so the tempered scale is much better to use overall than the natural scale.

The other photos were of guitars made to other scales and I'm guessing at least one was made to be the natural scale. Of course, if you made a guitar using the natural scale, you'd need to retune it every time you changed key.

Thanks. Those were just details that I didn't want to take the time to go into. But you are correct.

[bufflehead]

I sing, and although I have a good voice, I have limited range. This forces me to use capos more than others. Because I utilize capos so much, the 14-fret guitar gives me a bit more freedom in terms of song selection. If it were not for that, all my guitars would be 12-frets because of their sweet sound. As it is, I only own 14-fret guitars.

Still, I'm betting there is an 12-fret 00 with a 1 11/16" nut out there waiting to help me through my dotage. Something I can play when I'm home alone and the doors are locked.

[Steadfastly]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks;5914457. [B

It also will bring your left hand a bit closer to you, which many find more comfortable[/B] .

I have often wondered about this effect for me. I lost some arm rotation a number of years ago when I busted my shoulder and a little closer would likely help me. Thanks for the post.

[Br1ck]

The 12 fret dreds I've played are almost too much of a good thing. I like them on small guitars where the bridge placement makes the guitar sound a size larger. And to me, 12 frets and slot heads go together.