Decisions, Decisions

[byudzai]

My Sable sounds warmer and woodier than my padauk X20 did -- so I sold the X20. But Seamusknives on here has an older non-veneer X20 that sounds wonderful. They were super different tonally and we played them side-by-side.

I like my X30's sound much better than either of the smaller guitars, but it's a big critter.

I wish I knew what "X-factor" accounts for the difference between the two X20s -- would be interesting if everyone on this forum could get their X20s together and see how the sound palettes compare.

I have a veneer and non-veneer X30 and they sound exactly the same in every test I was able to devise. So I don't think it was just the veneer.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Good points all around. String spacing is an interesting issue. When you say that the X20 has a wider string spacing, is that at both nut and bridge, or just the bridge?

The Sable is the same in this respect as what Taylor does: 1 3/4" nut and 2 3/16" saddle. The Cargo has a 1 3/4" nut and a 2 1/4" saddle spacing, and it does feel wider than the McPherson.

Now to the interesting (to me) part. Before I got my Sable, I got a Taylor K14ce Builder's Edition new last October. I have always preferred a wider string spacing for fingerstyle, but like this particular guitar enough to try adjusting to it. I also have a Huss & Dalton 00 12 fret that has a custom neck with a 1 7/8" nut and 2 5/16" saddle string spacing.

There was a thread discussing string spacing right around that time in the main section of the forum. One poster said that if you attend carefully to your fretting hand technique, the typical (these days) 1 3/4" nut with 2 3/16" saddle spacing ought to be plenty. I decided to try focusing on my technique, especially being self-taught rather than guided and watched by a teacher.

Sure enough, with just a bit of such attention, I became quite comfortable with my Taylor for fingerpicking. Further, going back to my Huss & Dalton, it felt too wide to be comfortable anymore.

So I suppose what I am saying is that we can adjust to some extent to differences in guitar dimensions. I am not sure I could be comfortable with a 1 11/16" nut, but then these were intended for flatpickers, where minimal distance between strings is desirable. I have read posts around here of folks who do just fine with that width and fingerpicking, so maybe I could adjust even to that if I had to.

As for sound, "sharp and zingy" would definitely not be a Sable. However, I have read here that carbon fiber guitars seem to be very sensitive to the strings used, so maybe some experimenting on either the X20 or Sable would yield some middle ground.

Tough choices...

Tony

They’re both 1.75” at the nut but I’m not sure if the string spacing is the same there or not. But the X20 is 2 1/4” at the bridge compared to the Sable’s 2 3/16. Everyone has different preferences, sensitivities, and ability to adapt. I haven’t noticed that spacing at the nut concerns me all that much, but I seem to be pretty sensitive to spacing at the bridge for fingerpicking. I’m OK with 2 1/4”, prefer wider, and narrower would be a deal breaker for me. So if I was buying a guitar with fingerstyle in mind, I’d personally avoid the Sable, but I’m sure others would be fine with it. My current guitar is 2 5/16” and I like it notably more than both of my previous guitars that were 2 1/4”. You wouldn’t think 1/16” would make that much difference but it seems to for me. I recently played a guitar with a 1 7/8” nut and even wider 2 3/8” spacing at the saddle - LOVED the spacing at the bridge, but that neck was uncomfortable to me at the fretting position - I like fat and wide necks, but evidently only to a point because that one finally exceeded my comfort level. I might have adapted to it in time, but it was an expensive critter and would have had to be my only acoustic and I didn’t like it enough for that so didn’t give it the time to see if I’d adapt. Ironically, my current one and only was inexpensive enough that I could have kept one of my two previous guitars, but I didn’t see either getting enough playing time to make sense to keep, so I sold both.

Again, all of this stuff is VERY much a personal preference and may be of no concern to the OP, but I figured it might be useful information so I mentioned it. Tonally, I suspect I’d prefer the Sable to the X20, but no idea whether the OP would or not...

-Ray

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by raysachs

They’re both 1.75” at the nut but I’m not sure if the string spacing is the same there or not. But the X20 is 2 1/4” at the bridge compared to the Sable’s 2 3/16. Everyone has different preferences, sensitivities, and ability to adapt. I haven’t noticed that spacing at the nut concerns me all that much, but I seem to be pretty sensitive to spacing at the bridge for fingerpicking. I’m OK with 2 1/4”, prefer wider, and narrower would be a deal breaker for me. So if I was buying a guitar with fingerstyle in mind, I’d personally avoid the Sable, but I’m sure others would be fine with it. My current guitar is 2 5/16” and I like it notably more than both of my previous guitars that were 2 1/4”. You wouldn’t think 1/16” would make that much difference but it seems to for me. I recently played a guitar with a 1 7/8” nut and even wider 2 3/8” spacing at the saddle - LOVED the spacing at the bridge, but that neck was uncomfortable to me at the fretting position - I like fat and wide necks, but evidently only to a point because that one finally exceeded my comfort level. I might have adapted to it in time, but it was an expensive critter and would have had to be my only acoustic and I didn’t like it enough for that so didn’t give it the time to see if I’d adapt. Ironically, my current one and only was inexpensive enough that I could have kept one of my two previous guitars, but I didn’t see either getting enough playing time to make sense to keep, so I sold both.

Again, all of this stuff is VERY much a personal preference and may be of no concern to the OP, but I figured it might be useful information so I mentioned it. Tonally, I suspect I’d prefer the Sable to the X20, but no idea whether the OP would or not...

-Ray

In my personal experience, choosing a guitar is a personal thing, from looks to playability for a given individual, to sound, and budget. This is why I much prefer try before you buy (i.e. not picking a guitar from an online catalog). Also, different people do seem to have varying levels of tolerance for differences in guitars.

As an example, I am generally left-handed, but being self taught on guitar, I just did what I saw most people (except Paul McCartney and Jimi Hendrix) do by playing right handed. When I first started playing, it really didn't matter which handedness I used to play guitar because it was all new and uncomfortable.

However, I hear of left-handed people who simply could not play right handed even from the very beginning. So it would not be a stretch to understand that some people are more particular than others with other aspects of the guitar such as string spacing.

Tony

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Why would you care whether it’s ‘braced’ or not?

I don't recall saying I cared but as a guitar geek I like to know these things, especially the "why's". Nothing wrong with that is it?

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Why not just trust your ears to determine if it’s a guitar you prefer, instead of trying to ascribe reasons as to why?

I trust my ears very much and I'm not ascribing to anything. It's a fact that CA and McPherson voice their guitars through bracing while Rainsong and Emerald do it through their sandwich. I find it intriguing that different companies can use different methods and achieve their goal. Which is easier, which is better is up to them to decide. Seems to me though bracing is what's aiding to the more traditional sound.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

I don't recall saying I cared but as a guitar geek I like to know these things, especially the "why's". Nothing wrong with that is it?

Nothing wrong at all. My apologies for being a little abrasive - it was not my intent.

Carry on, and ignore the grumpy Brit

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

In my personal experience, choosing a guitar is a personal thing, from looks to playability for a given individual, to sound, and budget. This is why I much prefer try before you buy (i.e. not picking a guitar from an online catalog). Also, different people do seem to have varying levels of tolerance for differences in guitars.

As an example, I am generally left-handed, but being self taught on guitar, I just did what I saw most people (except Paul McCartney and Jimi Hendrix) do by playing right handed. When I first started playing, it really didn't matter which handedness I used to play guitar because it was all new and uncomfortable.

However, I hear of left-handed people who simply could not play right handed even from the very beginning. So it would not be a stretch to understand that some people are more particular than others with other aspects of the guitar such as string spacing.

Tony

Indeed! And I'll add, just for a little more context, that I've been playing guitar a long time, but only took up fingerpicking about a year and a half ago. So, being new to it I may be more particular about string spacing now than I will be in a couple more years when, presumably, I'll be better or at least more at ease with it.

With fingerpicking, I assumed the same posture regarding playing with bare fingers or picks as you did learning to play right handed. Because it all felt about as easy and natural as suddenly trying to speak Chinese (or Japanese, or Russian), I figured I might as well learn to play with fingerpicks because I've seen so many people say they learned with bare fingers and could never adapt to playing with fingerpicks, but never heard anyone say they learned with picks but could never adapt to playing with bare fingers. So I learned using fingerpicks and now, despite not doing ANY of it all that well, I'm equally comfortable with and without fingerpicks. It did take a little while to adapt to bare fingers, just because its harder to get much volume or projection, but that came pretty quickly and I'm really glad I took that approach because I really enjoy playing both with and without picks.

-Ray

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by byudzai

I wish I knew what "X-factor" accounts for the difference between the two X20s -- would be interesting if everyone on this forum could get their X20s together and see how the sound palettes compare.

At some point later in the year, I can do that on a small scale. I will have a X20 (stock model) from 2016 and a 2020 custom X20 with short scale. I will definitely report any tonal differences that are perceived. Even that won't be a perfect comparison, because the stock X20 has the Anthem pickup and the new one won't have any pickup - just internally prepped for an eventual K&K install. I will not rip out the Anthem just to compare the two, although I know some here would.

There has to be some confidence and faith in the builder that whatever changes they might have made along the way are for the greater tonal good.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Nothing wrong at all. My apologies for being a little abrasive - it was not my intent.

Carry on, and ignore the grumpy Brit

No worries and no harm done!

[tbeltrans]

I really don't think a person can go wrong with any of the carbon fiber guitars being discussed around here. These things (at least the models/brands I have had the opportunity to try) have all sounded very good and I could be happy with that aspect of any of them. It is the playability that I would want to explore with guitar in hand.

It sounds from reading some of the comparisons and individual comments that the feel of the Emerald and the McPherson may well be similar enough that either guitar would fit the bill.

Tony

[Jochiro]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Maybe this will help...

Reading through this thread again, I get the idea that both guitars are nice, both guitars play easily enough, but that the each have their own distinctive sound.

Since I have not yet played an current model Emerald, I can't comment on its sound. I will admit that a part of my decision was that the McPherson line is available right here in town and I was able to get really good deals by just walking in and saving them the hassle of having to ship. Emerald offered to let me try before I buy, but I liked the McPherson product very well and wouldn't look forward to having to ship guitars back and forth to Ireland. But that is just me. Many people are fine with such shipping and probably do it all the time.

With the Sable, it does have a nice warm tone. My main style is fingerstyle chord melody (some might refer to it as jazz). I would compare it to cocktail style piano. The Sable seems perfect for that. If I use a thumbpick and play Travis style (a nice diversion once in a while), it seems to work well for that too. It does not have a "jangley" sound, but instead, a thick and warm tone.

It may well be that the Emerald has its signature sound that is better suited to certain styles than others. If only you could try before you buy, playing the music that you like to play, you could judge for yourself. From what I understand reading in this forum, the Sable is not commonly available for many folks to walk in and try either. McPherson is located about a 90 minute drive from me, so I would expect somebody around here to carry their products. Both Fret Central and Guitar Center do. However, we have 3 or 4 Guitar Centers around here, and I think only one carries McPherson (the one closest to me).

Maybe those who have had the opportunity to play both the Emerald X20 and the McPherson Sable, could comment on which they prefer for what types of music. But, then maybe both are good all around guitars too (which wouldn't help your decision). You have not indicated what music you like to play unless I missed that part of your posts, but among such posts, you might discern a pattern that helps you decide. This thread could then serve in the future for others faced with the same decision.

Tony

Thanks Tony. This helps a lot. I ordered one from a Guitar Center yesterday. Be here in mid June. I’ve agonized over this decision.

[Jochiro]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Looks like you will be another good reference when you receive it. There was another guy who reported here last year (I think) who had an older X20 and bought a newer X20 but ended up returning the new one. Apparently Emerald changed the soundboard or the construction of the X20 at some point, though I cannot personally say. My X20 doesn't sound anything like the ones on Youtube. Not the best reference I know but that's all I have. Looking forward to hearing from someone else who has an older and newer X20 to see how different they are tonally. The folks on here who have the older ones certainly praise them which is why I took a chance and bought one but ended up being let down.

My X20 and Sable have roughly the same volume and projection, I mentioned that in my NGD thread. My wife (who doesn't have a very good ear for music) thinks the Sable is a little louder. From the player perspective it's hard to tell due to Emerald's up and out soundhole. Either way they would be close enough to not have to ponder over it. The Sable has a much warmer and woodier tone, even warmer than the X30. The X30 is course louder than the Sable and is hard to describe tonally. It produces a warm tone overall, but it's more piano like and very pleasing to the ears. I love my Sable and I love my X30 but my X20 would be on the top of my list of current guitars to sell if I ever did. I know some of you won't like those words but I would rather be honest about it. We all have different preferences so there's that too.

Thanks for the input. It’s much appreciated. I ordered the Sable yesterday from GC. Will be getting it mid June

[Jochiro]

I’m new here and I much appreciate the responses. I ordered the Sable yesterday through GC. Should arrive mid June. I’ve agonized over this as I have spent over three times on this guitar what I had previously spent on my most expensive guitar that I own so it’s a big leap for me. Thanks for the info. I hope to someday have an Emerald as well.

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Jochiro

I’m new here and I much appreciate the responses. I ordered the Sable yesterday through GC. Should arrive mid June. I’ve agonized over this as I have spent over three times on this guitar what I had previously spent on my most expensive guitar that I own so it’s a big leap for me. Thanks for the info. I hope to someday have an Emerald as well.

Congratulations, none of them are cheap for sure but the best part is you don't have to worry about temperature or humidity with them and like Tony said you can't go wrong with any of them. The Sable comes setup nicely from the factory. The action will never change unless you change it. Look forward to your NGD post.

[Frettingflyer]

Originally Posted by Jochiro

I’m new here and I much appreciate the responses. I ordered the Sable yesterday through GC. Should arrive mid June. I’ve agonized over this as I have spent over three times on this guitar what I had previously spent on my most expensive guitar that I own so it’s a big leap for me. Thanks for the info. I hope to someday have an Emerald as well.

Glad to hear about the order, which version did you get? I fell for the Sable by chance when I had traveled to try out the El Capitan and picked up the Sable on a whim. It was a base model(no gold or EVO etc..) but I am very happy with it and expect you will be too. Having had an X20(Earl’s 2016) I have missed that, but had pain in my fretting hand if playing it too long(3 hours) in a day. Not sure why, and glad Emerald will make a custom neck, but the Sable is a great find for me. Now you can try the Sable with a return policy and so less risk up front, then get the Emerald next year

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Jochiro

I’m new here and I much appreciate the responses. I ordered the Sable yesterday through GC. Should arrive mid June. I’ve agonized over this as I have spent over three times on this guitar what I had previously spent on my most expensive guitar that I own so it’s a big leap for me. Thanks for the info. I hope to someday have an Emerald as well.

Congrats on the order of your new Sable. If you like it when it first arrives, you will continue to like it because it will always be that good. Carbon fiber guitars are supposed to be impervious to all the elements that cause wood guitars to require periodic maintenance (other than string changes of course). Though you made a good choice, you probably would not have gone wrong with any of the choices you were weighing, especially since none of them involved try before you buy.

Tony