Stereo Mics wanted, $2K budget

[SpiritShooter]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

I'll add my $0.02 worth of ranting here. Like the others, I've owned a lot of the mics talked about here. The first thing that comes to my mind is that an inexperienced person doesn't need to buy a $3600+ pair of mics. Doesn't that sound crazy? It sounds crazy as I type it. And, Michael - I'm not trying to be disparaging or rude - I'm trying to just bring us all back to Earth here. $3600 for a pair of mics for a "newbie" is, let's be honest, the far end of the spectrum...

You have to ask yourself: "Am I just falling for the hype? Am I just buying gear b/c a Youtube video sounded good? Am I just buying these mics because a few guys on a forum said they use it? Am I buying these mics because the salesman told me that, this one time, in the studio, he got the most amazing guitar sound with them?" As someone who has been in more than my share of "the throes of gear sluttiness", take our word here that the microphone is just piece of the chain.

The Schoeps aren't for everyone. I'll offer my opinion as to why "everyone who can afford a pair" doesn't own them: it's because they've either (a) tried other mics that they love (and they've since never wanted to try another mic, let alone the Schoeps), or (b) they've tried the Schoeps and didn't like them as much as something else. Will that be you? What if you buy them, record with them, and you don't like the sound? Or what if you buy them, record with them, and you flat out cannot make yourself sound like the recordings you like to listen to? You could sell them in the used market for probably $2500-$2800 which means you'd have just lost ~$1000. Or, to go to the opposite end of the spectrum, what if you buy them, record with them, and love them - would you have been able to accomplish the same thing with a $1000 pair of mics? What is that you are missing by not trying other mics?

And heck, why stop at the Schoeps if we're trying to go "to the top of Gear Mountain"? Many folks believe a stereo pair of Neumann KM54s is the holy grail of mics. Why not up the budget a bit to $5000-$6000 and get those? Then you'll have a pair of tube SDCs. At least with the KM54s, you'd be able to sell them for what you paid.

I tend to believe that the final recording is the average of a bunch of different properties, with "gear" being one of those. You can have a great mic but you'll absolutely be "making the least of it" if the rest of those properties aren't of the same quality.

I also agree with Fran that the preamp makes a far smaller difference than you think. Saying that you find it difficult to compare mics that use different preamps is fine - but I'd then have to question your monitoring chain. If you aren't set up with a killer chain in a well-tuned room, there's almost zero chance that what you are hearing is "the difference in preamps" vs. something else (a bias, perhaps).

Take a few days, breathe, think about something else for a while. And then ask yourself, "Is it crazy that I want to spend $3600 on a pair of mics?"

Scott,

Thank you for your very well thought out and candid thoughts.

You are 100% correct in your thinking. In fact, in addition to my profession, I have been making and selling photography in galleries for over 20 years. I often see rich dentists buying $30K camera systems and wonder why. Making wonderfully expressive images is something that a talented person can do with a $150 camera and some film (anyone know what film is?)

Anyway, I will take your advice and give it some time to fester and ferment.

Thanks for your rational and grounded thoughts.

[Scott Whigham]

Thanks for understanding my intent (instead of thinking I was attacking you or anything). Sometimes the written word is harder to understand things like that...

And BTW - I do own the Schoeps CMC41 set. I don't tell you the above b/c I don't like them; I tell you that because of your experience level. There's a certain "thing" you get from moving up the ladder that is very valuable IMO. Start out with a $400 pair of Oktava MK-012s or SM81s and move up every 6+ months if you feel you need to. I try to buy used generally so that I can sell it for $50ish of what I paid. Experiment. You have the budget - you might find you prefer an LDC and an SDC together rather than a pair of SDCs. Have fun. It probably takes a solid 2-3 years to find "your mic combination" if you really work fast.

[SpiritShooter]

Letting the ego get in the way is something that I try to never let happen, not always successful but I try.

Thanks again, but now I know I will have lots of work to do.
Have a great day.

Mike

[alohachris]

Aloha Spirit Shooter,

A few recommendations that could make your life easier as you get into this.

First, Ethan Winer's "bible" on acoustic room treatment will help you &/or your builder conceptualize & make the best choices for treating your space. This should be an interesting read for an architect or anyone interested in room acoustics:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

FWIW, I built 22 of Fran's portable, DIY broad-band absorbers & they work amazingly well - even on a room w/ three-sides glass, floor-to-ceiling. It was easy to do & saved me thousand$.

Secondly, the Nextel-Grey CMC6 mic bodies of the Schoeps Collete Series are a bit fragile & easily marked. I don't like their A-20 shockmounts because they can actually mark the body if used in the same place all the time. Of course, you can also send the bodies back to Schoeps in the future & have the bodies reconditioned. But there is an answer.

The Audio Technica AT 8415 low-profile shock-mount is a much better shock-mount choice, IMO - for any mic. It uses replaceable crosswebs of soft, black poly bands that suspend the mic in air & don't mark it. Easy to install & remove mic's from that mount. Just based on my experience. Get some extra bands & keep them in a sealed bag for replacement, Spirit.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=REG&A=details

Thirdly, these Mogami Gold Quad Neglex cables are the ones you need for any mic's in a studio:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Mogami-G...43&cagpspn=pla

Finally, the DR 259 MS1500BK low-profile mic stands can handle a heavier load (if you say get an LDC in the future) than the AKG's.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/DR-Pro-D...41-i1170321.gc

A Hui Hou, Spirit.

alohachris

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by SpiritShooter

...
Based on everyones input, I have placed an order for the following:

Apogee Quartet Interface
Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41 Matched Pair w/ A20 Shock Mounts
Two AKG Low Profile Boom Mike STands
...

Good choices for the front end, although you might consider larger or stronger mic stands. The shockmounts that come with the Schoeps US Edition Set suck, you'll need to get something else. Plenty to choose from.

Time to move on to the really important things:

1) Monitoring chain;
2) Room treatment; and
3) The 500 hours of time you will invest in learning, exploring and discovering.

[SpiritShooter]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Good choices for the front end, although you might consider larger or stronger mic stands. The shockmounts that come with the Schoeps US Edition Set suck, you'll need to get something else. Plenty to choose from.

Time to move on to the really important things:

1) Monitoring chain;
2) Room treatment; and
3) The 500 hours of time you will invest in learning, exploring and discovering.

All in good time my friend, all in good time.

Changed stands to DR Pro.
Changed Shock Mounts to Audio Technica 8415

[beauarts]

I own pairs of Schoeps, Neumann km 140, and also the Neumann KM54 tubes mics. All lovely mics I could say without hesitation that those and probably the gefells would work for you. (The km54 mics are out of your range). I bought all of mine used, you could find a reputable dealer or go on gearslutz.com and check their classifieds. There's also a few discussions if you search on there too that may cover the same topic.

A hypercardiod mic pattern will pick up less room but generally is harder to design. Therefore is more expensive and can color the sound unless made by a very good company. On the other hand, omni mics can be very natural and easier to place if you know how to use them.

I presume you're looking for a precision sound for fingerstyle solo guitar playing. Just as often I use other non-standard mics coupled with those pesky aforementioned (and trashed here) very expensive mic preamps. You can find a studio with a good mic collection and book an hour to try some out. By the same token, if you have a pro audio dealer in the area, you can arrange some kind of test or tryout.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by SpiritShooter

All in good time my friend, all in good time.

Changed stands to DR Pro.
Changed Shock Mounts to Audio Technica 8415

Cool........

[Feste]

Originally Posted by SpiritShooter

I want this to pretty much be a one time purchase. I feel that spending additional funds now, may prevent the need to sell and purchase again in the future.

Buying mics is not unlike guitars, there will always be something else you want to try. I agree buying good mics is a very good decision. They are arguably the most important part of your chain. Once you own and get to know different mics you will be expanding your tastes and knowledge ... Hence more mics.
I have evolved to a pair of Gefells, a m300 and a m930.
Absolutely love them!
Good luck on your search. Check out Merecenary Audio in Boston.
They encourage shoot outs!

P.S. AD/DA is also important in your chain... The hunt for the prefect recording chain is never ending

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by SpiritShooter

I read that the Schoeps CMC641 is very forgiving of room imperfections. Obviously a matched pair of CMC641 is somewhat over my budget, but buying a single CMC641 is certainly an option adding a second down the line. How real is the 'matched pair" advantage in a microphone of this quality?
Michael

Michael,

When I bought my second CMC641, they asked to know the serial number of the one I owned. Why? So they could pull it's frequency response and sensitivity from the mic data sheet that they have on file for that particular mic and find a new one that was a good match. Impressive!

I'd go with one Schoeps cmc641 and never look back.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[SpiritShooter]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Michael,

When I bought my second CMC641, they asked to know the serial number of the one I owned. Why? So they could pull it's frequency response and sensitivity from the mic data sheet that they have on file for that particular mic and find a new one that was a good match. Impressive!

I'd go with one Schoeps cmc641 and never look back.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ha, you guys are killing me.

My recording consultant (sounds pretty official) and I spoke on the phone for almost 2 hours this AM. We discussed the pro's and con's of buying less and more expensive microphones. All in all, we wound up agreeing that there are positives to both approaches (pretty diplomatic, eh?). However, he suggested that I work with a couple of his mid and high priced mics to see what I thought of the sound prior to buying anything.

He and I did make a minor change to the studio equipment list. He is giving me two Rycote Invision INV-HG mounts that he has as extras. I don't know much about them, but they look like this:

[alohachris]

Aloha SpiritShooter,

Don't use that shockmount with a valuable mic - unless you want marks on it over time. Wrong design for better SDC mic's, IMO - that tight clamp. It's the same mech as the A-20 clamp. Free aint free in this case. Get the AT8415's. Avoid those mounts, Spirit.

Here's what you want. Zoom into the picture of this shock-mount:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...G&Q=&A=details

It's a suspended design that does NOT mark mic bodies as the cheap Rycotes can.

alohachris

[SpiritShooter]

****, there's always a catch when someone gives you "somethin' for nuthin".

AlohaChris, are you absolutely sure. We just spoke and he told me that the insde is made of a soft rubberized type of material that will not scratch the microphone.
I would rather be safe that sorry.

Thanks AC.

Mike

[moon]

Originally Posted by Scott Whigham

The first thing that comes to my mind is that an inexperienced person doesn't need to buy a $3600+ pair of mics.

I respect that. I do. You can still do a lot even with some well-chosen, cheaper, modern gear. I'm in that position myself; I have to make do with what I can get.

But what in life is more important than music? I can honestly say that the some of the best moments I've ever experienced were spent playing music.

Maybe making my first ever recording at the age of 19 with some friends, something we improvised on the spot. OK it probably wasn't that great but it meant something to us.

Or later, busking, playing Mozart flute concertos early in the year when the cherry blossom was out, feeling like you're calling on the Spring to come and bring life back to the land. I was living in a tent at the time, on the edge, but I wasn't just playing to earn enough to eat. It's always a privilege to figure out a way to do what you love to do.

One of the totally addictive things about playing music are the moments when you get "in the zone", an intense kind of concentration where time slows down, the world shrinks away, and you are so completely immersed in the music and the moment that you're not really a person trying to play an instrument any more: you're just singing. I'd always encourage anyone to look for that.

Creativity never makes any kind of financial sense or any other kind of practical, "real-world" sense but it's important to follow your dreams, to push yourself and find out what you can really do. If you're serious about music, I think you should spend every last penny (first) on a great instrument and (second) on great recording gear.

You won't get another chance...

[Feste]

Originally Posted by moon

Creativity never makes any kind of financial sense or any other kind of practical, "real-world" sense but it's important to follow your dreams, to push yourself and find out what you can really do. If you're serious about music, I think you should spend every last penny (first) on a great instrument and (second) on great recording gear.

You won't get another chance...

Well said!
I agree with the sentiment here, but I am so not sure about "the every last penny" idea or the "won't get another chance". The accessibility, availability and affordability of quality recording equipment today is so far beyond what we had as kids that the opportunity is increased in proportion.