Shipping a 1930s Kalamazoo – CITES – help!

[jmit]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for advice on shipping my Kalamazoo KG-11 flat-top.

The FON on the neck block seems to be "872", which I believe indicates a manufacture year of 1933. Even if my interpretation is wrong, though, the manufacture date is certainly before 1943, when this model went out of production.

I'm new to shipping so I've only just come across CITES for Brazilian rosewood. Several sources, including the UK government website, say that if a product was manufactured before 1947 it is exempt from needing certification.

Is this true for all countries? Can I ship internationally without fear? How does a customs official know that a cardboard box passing through has an instrument with exempt or non-exempt Brazilian rosewood in it?

It would be useful if I could find a statement to the effect on the CITES website, but it all looks so complicated…

Any advice would be very welcome!

Jon

[RJVB]

You could want to ship (or travel with) the guitar for all kinds of reasons (hint, hint)

Are you certain the wood is BRW, and that the model is undisputable?

Others on here are much more expert than I in these things but AFAIK the CITES regulations are the same everywhere, so the exemptions should be too.

Gibson being who/what they are they should be able to produce a statement about the guitar and the woods used; whether they do such things is a different story.

Your safest bet would be to contact the customs service in the destination country to see how they implement CITES regulations.

Originally Posted by jmit

How does a customs official know that a cardboard box passing through has an instrument with exempt or non-exempt Brazilian rosewood in it?

In theory s/he doesn't if there are no documents that go along with it, not without opening the box. That's the whole problem (but possibly also the advantage) of a system where you only need a certificate for non-exempt substances: if nobody ever cheated that would make import/export of such things a lot smoother.

[jmit]

Are you certain the wood is BRW, and that the model is undisputable?

My understanding is that pretty much everything Gibson of that era is BRW, though I can't be certain. As for the model, seems to me pretty easily identifiable and undisputable. Of course, depends on whom one is disputing with!

Your safest bet would be to contact the customs service in the destination country to see how they implement CITES regulations.

Yes, this sounds like good advice. I would rather be "by the book" – though that entails knowing what "the book" is in this case, and as I say there is a lack of definitive official guidance.

I wonder is it good policy to state definitively on the outside of the packaging what is contained within? "1933 Kalamazoo acoustic guitar"?

[mcduffnw]

The CITIES regulations on Brazilian were put in place world wide in 1992 and were/are for wood used on guitars made from 1992 on. For whatever reason, they did not really begin to enforce the CITES regs until the mid 2000's, when for some reason the world...writ large...got a bee in it's bonnet about the issue, and then decided to really begin to enforce the regulations. The CITIES regulations would only affect you if you sold the guitar internationally including Canada. If you limit the sale to the USA only, you do not have an issue, as long as the shipping method and route does not go through and stop...ground or air...in Canada where Canadian Customs may get involved...obviously this means shipping to Alaska.

Your guitar is from the 30's, and there is no issue per se' on guitars made with Brazilian prior to 1992. Now, what you might want to include is some documentation that clearly shows the age of the guitar, just in case customs officials decide to inspect the guitar, which the vast majority of the time, they do not, unless it is a really really expensive guitar as indicated by the customs value declaration.

Again, though, if you can show the age of the guitar, just as a precaution, you should be fine.

Another thing you could do is call one of the major vintage guitar dealers...or two...like Carter Vintage and Gruhns Guitars, and tell them your situation, and see what they do in similar situations.

Honestly, if you just limit the sale to the USA only, you won't have any trouble finding a buyer for that fine old guitar. They are very much in demand, especially by players who really like playing the blues or old timey folk and country.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by jmit

I wonder is it good policy to state definitively on the outside of the packaging what is contained within? "1933 Kalamazoo acoustic guitar"?

You will need and want to declare a shipping value anyway because the recipient is probably going to be taxed - unless you have a secret recipe to deflate a guitar it's too large to fly under the radar for that kind of thing. Both you and the recipient will undoubtedly also want to have the shipment insured for a reasonable replacement value.
Specifying that it's a guitar from 1933 should be enough I think, for the CITES thing. Anything more is probably likely to attract unwanted attention from customs officers feeling a sudden need to verify the external claims are true (listing a famous brand name could trigger their counterfeit jekr reflex for instance) to handlers with less, erm, noble intentions.

EDIT: I wonder if it'd be a good or bad idea to include a photo of the guitar's label in the exterior documentation.

[jmit]

Yes I'd put the honest sale value on it.

When you say the guitar's label – you mean a photo of the headstock? There is no label inside the body…

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by jmit

Yes I'd put the honest sale value on it.

When you say the guitar's label – you mean a photo of the headstock? There is no label inside the body…

No, don't put any photo of any part of the guitar on the exterior of the shipping box. You don't need to attract the wrong kind of attention to what is in there.

I see that you may be in the UK? Yes? I apologize, I thought you were here in the US. Well then, again, I would just try to sell it in the UK, and again, I don't think you will have any issues finding a buyer. If you really do want to have the potential to sell it outside of the UK, then call that wonderful Netherlands guitar shop, "The Fellowship Of The Acoustics" and talk to them, and they will give you very sound advice and counsel!!!


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by jmit

When you say the guitar's label – you mean a photo of the headstock? There is no label inside the body…

OK, I misread that. Any part of the guitar that helps identify it, but of course not just stuck to the outside of the box; rather out of sight in the sleeve with the other documents. Anyway, that was just me tossing up an idea!

[colins]

The AGF is very fortunate to have John Thomas as a member. His username is jt1. He is an expert on both Kalamazoo Gibsons and also on the impact of CITES on guitar shipments. I suggest you search on his name, or send him a PM.

[jmit]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

No, don't put any photo of any part of the guitar on the exterior of the shipping box. You don't need to attract the wrong kind of attention to what is in there.

I see that you may be in the UK? Yes? I apologize, I thought you were here in the US. Well then, again, I would just try to sell it in the UK, and again, I don't think you will have any issues finding a buyer. If you really do want to have the potential to sell it outside of the UK, then call that wonderful Netherlands guitar shop, "The Fellowship Of The Acoustics" and talk to them, and they will give you very sound advice and counsel!!!

Thank you. Yes, you're right, I can see that there's a delicate balance between being transparent and too upfront about what's in a box!

Yes I'm in the UK. Hoping as it's near Christmas someone wants to treat himself or herself…!

[jmit]

Originally Posted by colins

The AGF is very fortunate to have John Thomas as a member. His username is jt1. He is an expert on both Kalamazoo Gibsons and also on the impact of CITES on guitar shipments. I suggest you search on his name, or send him a PM.

Thank you, this is a great tip. If I receive interest from an interactional buyer, I certainly will PM him.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by jmit

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for advice on shipping my Kalamazoo KG-11 flat-top.

The FON on the neck block seems to be "872", which I believe indicates a manufacture year of 1933. Even if my interpretation is wrong, though, the manufacture date is certainly before 1943, when this model went out of production.

I'm new to shipping so I've only just come across CITES for Brazilian rosewood. Several sources, including the UK government website, say that if a product was manufactured before 1947 it is exempt from needing certification.

Is this true for all countries? Can I ship internationally without fear? How does a customs official know that a cardboard box passing through has an instrument with exempt or non-exempt Brazilian rosewood in it?

It would be useful if I could find a statement to the effect on the CITES website, but it all looks so complicated…

Any advice would be very welcome!

Jon

Hi Jon,

in 2011 I bought a 1934 Gibson L-4 (the one I've decided to sell.

I called HMC&E, and found a really helpful chap, who told me that at that age it is considered a "collectors piece" rather than a "guitar" and so there would be no excise duty. Obviously I would have to pay VAT on the cost of the item and shipping cost, plus a handling charge, but He gave me a Reference Number which the seller (Archtop.com) were to put on the shipping box.

It all went through well but the dealer didn't put the reference number on he box properly, so I it cost me another £80-90 or so - plus VAT!

The shipper must complete a CN22 form clearly fixed and visible on the shipping box.

[Yrksman]

Originally Posted by jmit

My understanding is that pretty much everything Gibson of that era is BRW, though I can't be certain. As for the model, seems to me pretty easily identifiable and undisputable. Of course, depends on whom one is disputing with!

Gibson’s wood of choice was mahogany and this applied to Kalamazoo guitars. It was the fingerboards that were Brazilian rosewood. Given the age of the guitar it is exempt from CITES

Have you obtained a quote for shipping costs from the UK? Kalamazoo guitars are great but do not command particularly high prices. Is it economically viable? The UK market is pretty dead at the moment so you may be doing the right thing but I’d make absolutely sure of all the costs (insurance can be very expensive) and pitfalls. If your prospective purchaser is covering shipping costs make sure that they accept 100% responsibility for the guitar in transit. Be wary of PayPal refund claims after shipping.

[jt1]

My ears were burning!

Here's Fretboard Journal my article on this issue.

The only significant change to the law since the publication of that piece is the creation of the musical instrument passport. I have these passports for 2 of my WWI-era Gibson guitars. Here's my how-to article about the passports.

As others have pointed out, your guitar likely has a bridge and fingerboard made of Brazilian rosewood, which is on CITES Appendix I, the most restrictive CITES category.

As others have pointed out, your guitar is old enough (for Brazilian rosewood purposes, pre-1992) to be exempt. But, and this is a significant "but," you still need CITES documentation to that effect to cross the border of any of the 190+ CITES signator countries legally. What is the consequence of being caught crossing a border with a CITES Appendix I species without the requisite paperwork? Permanent seizure. The chances of being caught are minimal. The consequences grave. Only about a month ago, I corresponded with a fellow who had his vintage Martin seized.