Help building Emerald Fan Fret

[Jungestrand]

After playing the x7 I draw two conclusions.
1) I want a thinner and or slimmer feeling neck! The neck felt a little to thick near the edges of the fretboard, Im more used to something I would call a soft V shape. The thickness along the centerline of the X7 neck was about the same as my reference guitar but the circumference was bigger on the X7. To often this made my hand mute the high e when I was thumb-muting the low e.
2) I want a bigger guitar! I was positively surprised by the sound coming from the X7. So much that I want more of that.

Emerald has streamlined their production and are no longer doing some of the customizations they did before. Custom neck profile is no longer an option. You have some scale lengths to chose from and the 1 and 3/4 or the 1 and 11/16 nut width to choose from(same thickness and profile though). The only way to get a slimmer neck is by getting the x10.

After talking to Emerald back and forth this is what Im thinking.
A) X20 with the narrow 1/16th neck and fan frets, 25 to 26 inch scale.
B) The X10 fan frets 25 to 26 inch scale.

Questions:
Does anyone have any experience with a x20 fan fret? I can only see positive things with it but on the other hand I dont see anyone using them so? I usually keep my full length guitars down tuned one hole step. My playing is mostly the basic chords, strumming or finger picking. Talk me away from the fan fret thing if its not a great idea.

Will the 11/16th neck help me with my neck issue somewhat? I have an old beat up dread with 11/16 nut and that guitar does not give me this trouble. Its neck is super slim though.

What about the X10 fan fret?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Jungestrand

Questions:
Does anyone have any experience with a x20 fan fret? I can only see positive things with it but on the other hand I dont see anyone using them so? I usually keep my full length guitars down tuned one hole step. My playing is mostly the basic chords, strumming or finger picking. Talk me away from the fan fret thing if its not a great idea.

I have an x20 fan fret - but mine's a 7-string, with a neck wide enough to land a small aircraft on So, any comments I have about the neck would not be relevant.

I love the fan frets though, and would strongly consider them for a future build. Mine's 25.5" - 27", so a little longer than you're considering. It really helps the bass response, and I got used to it very quickly.

[Jungestrand]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

I have an x20 fan fret - but mine's a 7-string, with a neck wide enough to land a small aircraft on So, any comments I have about the neck would not be relevant.

I love the fan frets though, and would strongly consider them for a future build. Mine's 25.5" - 27", so a little longer than you're considering. It really helps the bass response, and I got used to it very quickly.

Thanks David. Can you use a capo as easely as on a regular neck? Maybe your neck is to wide for a capo comparison

[jklotz]

That's a shame they won't do custom neck profiles anymore. The neck on my X-20 is similar to the one on my Lowden. A distinct D shape with a flat back and wide shoulders. Maybe it's an Irish thing?

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by Jungestrand

Thanks David. Can you use a capo as easely as on a regular neck? Maybe your neck is to wide for a capo comparison

I used a Shubb 12-string capo with it - seems to work pretty well up to the third fret or so. I also use my G7 Performance 3 quite successfully over the top 6 strings, so giving me a drop-D equivalent, or in this case, drop-B - again up to the 3rd or 4th fret. It's the neck width that's the limiting factor, not the fan frets.

I have a suspicion that yoke-style capos might not work quite so well, but I don't have one to test, so I might very well be wrong.

[philjs]

Originally Posted by Jungestrand

After talking to Emerald back and forth this is what Im thinking.
A) X20 with the narrow 1/16th neck and fan frets, 25 to 26 inch scale.
B) The X10 fan frets 25 to 26 inch scale.

I have a six-string X20 fan fret that was supposed to be what you're contemplating, 25" to 26" scale. Be aware that if you ask for a 1" fan the best Emerald can deliver is actually a 1.25" fan. Alistair does (or has done) all of the fan frets himself and the template that he uses is for a 24.9" to 26.1" scale (then add ~ 0.05" for saddle compensation). Mine came in quite a bit broader than that (almost 1.4", that is 24.9" to 26.3" fan). I wasn't happy...

I was used to playing my six-string X30, which I had ordered with their 7-string fan (eg. 25.5" to 27") specifically to play as a baritone, and hadn't really noticed the much wider fan on the new X20 until I hung them on the wall beside each other. Then it became glaringly obvious and I had to get out the meter stick! BTW, the X30 has an actual, measured, 1.65" fan, actually 25.4" to slightly more than 27".

I suggest that if you want a short multiscale you speak directly with Alistair and/or ask for a 3/4" fan and see what is actually physically possible.

Phil

NB: I'm not unhappy with the X20, it's a great guitar, but it's simply not what I ordered. Alistair and I worked out our "difference of opinion" about the scale length to our mutual satisfaction.

[philjs]

Originally Posted by jklotz

The neck on my X-20 is similar to the one on my Lowden. A distinct D shape with a flat back and wide shoulders. Maybe it's an Irish thing?

Matches my experience exactly. I play and write tunes using partial capos (over DADGAD intervals), playing a Lowden O23c and two Emerald fan frets, and I don't have to adjust my Shubb capos (Esus4 and modified banjo capos) at all.

Maybe it is an Irish thing.

Phil

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by philjs

I was used to playing my six-string X30, which I had ordered with their 7-string fan (eg. 25.5" to 27") specifically to play as a baritone, and hadn't really noticed the much wider fan on the new X20 until I hung them on the wall beside each other. Then it became glaringly obvious and I had to get out the meter stick! BTW, the X30 has an actual, measured, 1.65" fan, actually 25.4" to slightly more than 27".

Interesting. I just measured my X20-7. Nut to 12th fret is 12 3/4” on the first string, 13 1/2” on the seventh - so a perfect 25.5”-27”, as advertised, and a 1.5” ‘fan’. If you measure nut to saddle, the numbers will, of course, differ, and make the ‘fan’ larger. In my case, that’s 25 9/16”-27 1/4” - a difference of 1 11/16”, or a 1.68” ‘fan’.

There was a fairly intense discussion elsewhere on the AGF about how to measure scale length recently, and it’s not my intent to fan that fire - just to point out that how you measure can make a substantial difference in the result.

[philjs]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

Interesting. I just measured my X20-7. Nut to 12th fret is 12 3/4” on the first string, 13 1/2” on the seventh - so a perfect 25.5”-27”, as advertised, and a 1.5” ‘fan’. If you measure nut to saddle, the numbers will, of course, differ, and make the ‘fan’ larger. In my case, that’s 25 9/16”-27 1/4” - a difference of 1 11/16”, or a 1.68” ‘fan’.

There was a fairly intense discussion elsewhere on the AGF about how to measure scale length recently, and it’s not my intent to fan that fire - just to point out that how you measure can make a substantial difference in the result.

I agree, David. Math and reality may be in conflict here but it's the end result with a fan fret that really matters: a major difference in the angle of the bridge, especially with Emerald's fan frets having the perpendicular fret at the 5th.

BTW, when asked to provide photos of the scale length "error" on the X20, I was asked to measure from the face of the nut to the face of the saddle (which is the crown of neither).

Phil

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by philjs

I agree, David. Math and reality may be in conflict here but it's the end result with a fan fret that really matters: a major difference in the angle of the bridge, especially with Emerald's fan frets having the perpendicular fret at the 5th.

The perpendicular fret on my X20-7 is between the 8th and the 9th, just eye-balling it.

BTW, when asked to provide photos of the scale length "error" on the X20, I was asked to measure from the face of the nut to the face of the saddle (which is the crown of neither).

Phil

That seems a little odd - neither fish nor fowl.

[philjs]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

The perpendicular fret on my X20-7 is between the 8th and the 9th, just eye-balling it.

My apologies to both you and the OP, the perpendicular fret on my X20 is actually the 7th fret, NOT the 5th. Checked it with my adjustable square. It looks like the 5th but those angles be playing with my brain...

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

That seems a little odd - neither fish nor fowl.

Agreed, but that's what I was asked. I sent them photos of the entire neck with the meter stick beside the 1st and the 6th string. The first string measured 632mm (24 7/8") and was exactly twice the nut to 12th fret distance (316mm). The saddle crown for the 1st string was easy to see and it fit the 24.9" narrative from their template. The bass string, however, was another story, with 332mm to the 12th fret and 668mm to the FACE of the saddle (and the crown is almost the saddle thickness beyond that) so it easily measured 26.3+ inches in length.

Despite the mathematical correctness of the "nut to 12th fret doubled" as the scale length, I think that the effective scale length, especially for fan fret instruments, must include scale corrections for string gauges and saddle compensation. As an instrumental fingerstyle player, the point of wanting the shorter-than-standard scale for the treble string was to "sweeten" the trebles. Unfortunately, the more extreme angle of the bridge/saddle means that those strings end up getting plucked closer to the bridge which eliminates the benefits of the shorter treble scale.

Phil

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by philjs

Despite the mathematical correctness of the "nut to 12th fret doubled" as the scale length, I think that the effective scale length, especially for fan fret instruments, must include scale corrections for string gauges and saddle compensation.

Maybe we should refer to scale length, and string length, as similar, but distinct measurements...

As an instrumental fingerstyle player, the point of wanting the shorter-than-standard scale for the treble string was to "sweeten" the trebles. Unfortunately, the more extreme angle of the bridge/saddle means that those strings end up getting plucked closer to the bridge which eliminates the benefits of the shorter treble scale.

I'm not following this - the saddle for the first string is in exactly the same place as it would be for the same scale on a conventionally fretted guitar. What am I missing?

[philjs]

Originally Posted by David Eastwood

I'm not following this - the saddle for the first string is in exactly the same place as it would be for the same scale on a conventionally fretted guitar. What am I missing?

Depends on playing style, I guess. I consider myself a "bridge thumper," which means that I have a tendency to "anchor" my palm on the bridge over the bass strings. This lets me mute the bass as needed but also to punctuate my playing with a bass drum backbeat. Here's an example of what I mean (albeit played on my Lowden, not a fan fret):



With my palm anchored on a fan fret bridge I end up playing the treble strings quite close to the bridge. On the baritone (the X30) this is not a bad thing since it gives the treble a little oomph (listen to Venus on the Half Shell). I ordered the X20 with the 1" fan for DADGAD to purposely avoid this issue...the bass end of the bridge wouldn't be on such an extreme angle and the shortened treble scale would work together to avoid the strident picking issue.

Some might say, "Well, you should change your playing style," but I'm an old dog and old tricks are hard to give up, especially when they're the only trick I've got!

Phil

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by philjs

Depends on playing style, I guess. I consider myself a "bridge thumper," which means that I have a tendency to "anchor" my palm on the bridge over the bass strings. This lets me mute the bass as needed but also to punctuate my playing with a bass drum backbeat. Here's an example of what I mean (albeit played on my Lowden, not a fan fret):



With my palm anchored on a fan fret bridge I end up playing the treble strings quite close to the bridge. On the baritone (the X30) this is not a bad thing since it gives the treble a little oomph (listen to Venus on the Half Shell). I ordered the X20 with the 1" fan for DADGAD to purposely avoid this issue...the bass end of the bridge wouldn't be on such an extreme angle and the shortened treble scale would work together to avoid the strident picking issue.

Some might say, "Well, you should change your playing style," but I'm an old dog and old tricks are hard to give up, especially when they're the only trick I've got!

Phil

Thanks for the explanation, Phil - now I understand. Especially about the old tricks - I’m a long-time pinkie planter, and consequently palm-muting never crossed my mind Nice playing, BTW - the Emerald sounds particularly fine.

Probably time to release the thread back to the OP - sorry for the diversion, Jungestrand!

[Jungestrand]

A little of topic maybe but I have been following your discussion with great interest. I eye measured the saddle on my Martin dr jr this morning and there is at least a 5mm difference, low E string being the longer scale.

I can see that there are negatives with fan fret that I have not thought about and it makes me worried, what else am I missing. Maybe this insecurity is why people usually go for the regular neck. On many of the wood guitar when tuned down my ears find the low E dull/less distinct/muddy/not lot LOUD enough compared to higher strings. This is what I want to fix with the fan frets.



But! Could it be that a standard x20 does not have this problem being made of carbon and all? What benefit do you see with the x20 fan fret compared to a regular x20? Down tuned a hole step, no alternate tunings.

What are the negatives with fan fret?