Love my SoloAmp but I think I am running into its limits

[shawntp]

Hey Folks, A day doesn't go by without discussion of the compact PA's vs full PA's so I need to make sure the sun sets appropriately tonight.

I have been playing out at coffee shops, beer tasting rooms, and more recently patios/outdoor events. I started playing with 3 other guys (vocals, guitars, mandolin, bass, congas/percussion). We are not the tightest musical group with 4 people/not a lot of practice but everyone is capable. We've been trying to find our groove but things get real muddy in my opinion. We would put a few acoustics and vocal into the Soloamp (it did fine) and the bass through its own amp (congas unamped).

A friend and I broke off and started playing more ourselves and despite the fact that he isnt the most talented in our group our sounds are a lot better (less is more). He has another friend who showed interest in playing with us - a guy who went to school for percussion, teaches music, and plays congas (hallelujah - a real percussionist !).

So I thought by toning down the group with just vocals / 2 guitars or guitar + mando and congas the Soloamp would be better. It does ok but im not really using it the way it was intended and I really want to mic up the congas because the guy is so good (plays congas and shakers all at once). I have a small cheap mixer going to the soloamp but I also make use of a Boomerang looper so the Soloamps headroom disappears quickly.

I think the next logical choice would be a QSC K8 and something like a Zed10FX. I would start with one and add if ever needed. I really like the size/weight and slightly wider dispersion.

Is this the next logical jump? I know the best thing would be for each musicians to bring their own amplification but its just never gonna happen (this percussion player is a young/new music teacher with a wife and makes 1/4 my salary). I dont mind getting gear to support the group but I live in a small mid-rise condo in the middle of a city so size/weight/etc are considerations. I know the Q10 is preferred over the Q8 for general application but for Mandolin/Acoustic/Conga/Voice I really am just looking for the smallest/easiest solution.

I'd prefer to swap the soloamp for the next logical stepping point for now. I am not sure if the K8 vs L1 Model II or other is my next best bet.

[DaveNJ]

I'm kind of in the same boat as you, but I'm still a solo performer (w/Boomerang as well). I'm finding the SoloAmp to be very mid-heavy and that I think I'm just missing having a larger speaker setup.

The K10 or K12 with a small mixer is probably the way I'm headed, but I'm going to follow your thread for advice...

[ljguitar]

Hi Shawn...

The solo amp is justly named SOLO amp not small group amp etc.

A small PA system with 12'' two way passive cabinets and a mixer would be far superior to the Solo amp and take up only minimally more room. I've experimented with gear for 45 years, and while 8'' woofers will handle acoustic guitars, it will not handle string bass adequately, and it's pretty easy for the vocals to get edgy in an 8'' array.

I've tried smaller speakers (6.5'') and larger rigs (15 inch 3 way cabs), and the point--n--shoot rigs are the 12'' two way cabinets. They will handle about everything well. The tiny speakers just don't do vocals well at all...especially multiple vocals.

And 8'' two way will handle a single guitar and vocal just great, but so will your SoloAmp. It's when you start loading in the inputs they become problematic.

Twelve inch two ways can handle a larger group without becoming overloaded (not overdriven). When you try to bring the volume up on a very small system (two to three singers, and three instruments for example), they tend so sound crowded and not distinct...they don't have the flexibility sonically to make room for different instruments.

And more power will not bring out more clarity or separation.

This is why smaller cabinets just don't do it for us (my gigging partner and I). There are times we are eating up all 8 channels on our board, and the sound is still clean and parts each distinguishable.

And the entire rig (2 cabinets, powered board, and stands) will fit in the trunk of my wife's Saturn. And we have heavy metal speaker stands which will extend to 10 feet. We fly them well above and behind us at coffee houses, restaurants, churches, and out door venues...the mains then become our monitors as well.

The advantage to two cabinets is larger crowds or noisy venues. Often we take only a single 12'' cabinet and fly it behind us about 8' up and we sit about 5' in front of it with the board right behind us.

Hope this pushes thoughts down stream...

[shawntp]

Thanks, Steve Jobs has brainwashed us to desire the most sleek/sexy/lightweight/minimalist solution out there even if they aren't the best. Do you find the same limitations in a 10" speaker of the same system? Meaning if the 12" is full and open / the 8" has trouble with congestion still - is the 10" somewhere in the middle or closer to the 12"?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by shawntp

Thanks, Steve Jobs has brainwashed us to desire the most sleek/sexy/lightweight/minimalist solution out there even if they aren't the best. Do you find the same limitations in a 10" speaker of the same system? Meaning if the 12" is full and open / the 8" has trouble with congestion still - is the 10" somewhere in the middle or closer to the 12"?

Hi Shawn...
I've not tried every system out there, but I'm just guessing with the response I have heard from some, there will be limitations.

I mean, a 12'' two way cabinet is already a compromise, and for me it is the minimum I've been able to adapt to a wide variety of applications successfully. It works great with solo and guitar, and it works for a pastor's conference in a room that seats 200 with a full band.

And it works in the park for a wedding with a trio of singers, with bass, and two acoustics running through it.

When I consider the size difference between cabinets there are 15'' cabinets that are not that much larger than my 12'' ones. But they really drop in size - and ability to move large amounts of air in larger spaces - below the 12'' woofer/cabinet size.

I mean, if a 15'' woofer is shooting basket balls, and a 12'' is shooting soccer balls, then a 10'' or 8'' woofers are shooting hard little playground balls into the room. And to get them to move large quantities of air, more power and volume must be applied which means you are starting to drill holes in someone to make the sound reach the back of the room.

I know that's not a perfect analogy...probalby time for some trial and error with your own group.

If you can, see if you can borrow a rig like the one you are suggesting (or rent it for a gig or two). We are so into going right out and buying the perfect fit that we forget these things can be borrowed/lent and rented.

[funeralsinger]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

I mean, a 12'' two way cabinet is already a compromise, and for me it is the minimum I've been able to adapt to a wide variety of applications successfully. It works great with solo and guitar, and it works for a pastor's conference in a room that seats 200 with a full band.

And it works in the park for a wedding with a trio of singers, with bass, and two acoustics running through it.

When I consider the size difference between cabinets there are 15'' cabinets that are not that much larger than my 12'' ones. But they really drop in size - and ability to move large amounts of air in larger spaces - below the 12'' woofer/cabinet size.

I mean, if a 15'' woofer is shooting basket balls, and a 12'' is shooting soccer balls, then a 10'' or 8'' woofers are shooting hard little playground balls into the room. And to get them to move large quantities of air, more power and volume must be applied which means you are starting to drill holes in someone to make the sound reach the back of the room.

With respect, I completely disagree with this train of thought. The sonic performance of a speaker (beyond very low frequencies generally covered by a subwoofer) has little, or absolutely nothing to do with the size of its woofer. In fact, in years past, the thinking was the opposite: the smaller the woofer, the better for reproducing vocals. With modern processing and speaker materials, smaller speakers easily outperform older, larger speakers in just about every way. While it is true that larger speakers are generally louder and might go a little lower, the size of a speaker is all but irrelevant to the reproduction quality of vocals or guitars or almost anything else for that matter.

The thing about power and volume in a room is also misplaced. If you want the sound to be x loud, you apply x amount of power to a speaker with x sensitivity, and you get the desired result. It's simple physics, and it's true. It doesn't matter how big the speaker is at all. If the speaker is capable of producing that much level with the desired frequency response, then it is...and the level can be predicted at any distance interval using the inverse-square law.

While I would never take Larry on about anything guitars or guitar playing, as the owner of an audio company, I've spent that last 25 years researching, buying, and using speakers from entry level to the very best money can buy, and certain things remain true, and measurable.

I definitely agree that one should thoroughly audition any system being considered for purchase before buying it.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by funeralsinger

With respect, I completely disagree with this train of thought. The sonic performance of a speaker (beyond very low frequencies generally covered by a subwoofer) has little, or absolutely nothing to do with the size of its woofer.

Hi fs...

With respect in return, I don't believe the size of the woofer is the limiter but the size and design of the cabinet. If you are talking a small cabinet satellite system with subwoofers of adequate size, then 6'' speakers could probably do the trick.

But I defy someone to find a 10'' woofer 2 or 3 way system (no sub) which will fill a 500 seat auditorium (or a really noisy cafe, coffeehouse or bar) for a group with 2-3 guitars, a bass, 3-4 vocalists, and a percussionist, and keep great separation with all that going on at volumes loud enough to be heard in the far corners with good fidelity. Maybe they can do that magic these days...we have come a long way with cabinet design (and I own and operate 3 PA systems for events).

Your experience sounds far more vast than mine, so I think the original poster would like some suggestions of a system for 3 guys vocals, guitars, mandolin, bass, congas/percussion (the original premise in the post for thinking he's outstripping the SoloAmp).

[funeralsinger]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi fs...

With respect in return, I don't believe the size of the woofer is the limiter but the size and design of the cabinet. If you are talking a small cabinet satellite system with subwoofers of adequate size, then 6'' speakers could probably do the trick.

But I defy someone to find a 10'' woofer 2 or 3 way system (no sub) which will fill a 500 seat auditorium (or a really noisy cafe, coffeehouse or bar) for a group with 2-3 guitars, a bass, 3-4 vocalists, and a percussionist, and keep great separation with all that going on at volumes loud enough to be heard in the far corners with good fidelity. Maybe they can do that magic these days...we have come a long way with cabinet design (and I own and operate 3 PA systems for events).

Your experience sounds far more vast than mine, so I think the original poster would like some suggestions of a system for 3 guys vocals, guitars, mandolin, bass, congas/percussion (the original premise in the post for thinking he's outstripping the SoloAmp).

Hello Larry,

A couple of quick points...in your previous post, you talked about a 200 seat room, and the OP never said he wanted bass in the PA. If you now want to fill a 500 seat room now, and have bass in there, then I would say it really can't be done properly with any full range speaker that can be put on a stand, without adding a sub or two. You also made specific references to woofer sizes and their different affects on the sound from the audience perspective. It is largely this assertion that I was taking issue with. I'm also not sure what you mean by "separation" of the vocals and things sounding "crowded" and "edgy" with respect to smaller woofer sizes. These are generalizations that give the wrong impression to someone who has little or no experience with sound systems, and these are concerning to me also. I think I know what you mean, but I still say that's a phenomenon that takes place when a speaker is pushed to its limit, or perhaps anomilies present in a poor quality speaker, and is not a factor of the size of the speaker.

No speaker system is the answer for every situation...and you obviously know this. I assert that perhaps a pair of K10 might be a happy medium for most of the jobs that the average small ensemble might do. They're capable of a surprising amount of output, sound pretty good, and are small and easy on the back. For a loud coffee house or pub - yes, I think they'd perform quite well. For 500 seat auditoriums? Absolutely not...not without beefing up at least the bottom end. Even then, that might be an example of not having enough rig for the gig. How often would the OP be in this situation? Only he knows, and if this was a common scenario for him, I'd be recommending something completely different. K10s as an upgrade from his Soloamp? Outstanding. Night and day.

You've obviously worked out what you're comfortable with for your own work, and you've said you own different sized systems that you taylor to your gigs...sounds like good strategy to me. I would just say that perhaps you could avoid what seemed to be unfair generalizations about small speakers being ineffective just because they're small. As with many things, it really depends...

I'm not sure if your reference to my "vast experience" was a little dig or not, but either way, my intention was mostly to indicate that I'm not as old as you and your 45 years of experience!

By the way, I very much like the song you wrote and recorded for your grandson. I actually tried to learn some of it one day, but didn't get very far with it. It must be in an open tuning, which I have zero experience with (I've only been playing guitar for about a year). You don't happen to have it written out somewhere, do you?

Cheers.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by funeralsinger

...By the way, I very much like the song you wrote and recorded for your grandson. I actually tried to learn some of it one day, but didn't get very far with it. It must be in an open tuning, which I have zero experience with (I've only been playing guitar for about a year). You don't happen to have it written out somewhere, do you?

Cheers.

Hi fs...

Thanks - I still do that in concert as well. Are you talking about the slow one or the fast one (I perform both)?

And I re-read your post and I though you were saying that the size of a speaker and it's performance have nothing to do with room size. That's why I offered a ridiculous scenario (500 seats with a single pair of 10'' cabinets)

All I'm saying is most 10'' cabinets I've encountered break down when you get 2-3 instruments and 3-4 vocals running through them. And he is suggesting percussion which if it includes a Djembe, or deep pitched Cajon will exhibit subharmonics lower than any bassist will throw at you.

The original poster alluded to a group that he's considering downsizing because he's outstripping the capability of his SoloAmp.

One overlooked suggestion is L1 or L2 Bose with a subwoofer. These do amazingly well in a number of applications.

Not a dig - you are probably buying new equipment than I am. I've not had to add to my systems for 4 years, and I'm retiring in 18 months so I'm done buying PA gear.

[funeralsinger]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi fs...

Thanks - I still do that in concert as well. Are you talking about the slow one or the fast one (I perform both)?

"Prayer for Noah" is the one I'm talking about...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by funeralsinger

"Prayer for Noah" is the one I'm talking about...

Hi Fs...

CGCGCD tuning and I can do it with an Esus capo as well.

[shawntp]

Thanks for all your perspectives, opinions, and bits of wisdom. I am just starting out with live performance (started in 2012) and am very much a green horn with PA's.

I bought a used SoloAmp because it seemed like a first choice but I suppose my sound reinforcement needs are changing around me. I would love to be able to go out and put on a great show solo and the soloamp would be great for that but at the moment I am exploring different avenues and putting in my hours.

I suppose though I state my current needs here that things could certainly change on me so I am better off with a decent system that will be versatile as my needs may change (since I am still exploring sounds with different musical partners).

Thanks all!

[dmann]

how about a new yamaha 8 channel PA head and matching 15 cabs or 12inch?

[rockabilly69]

After many gigs with a Solo amp, I switched to a ZED10FX and Mackie HD1221s (along with a Mackie HD1501 sub for bigger shows). The sound is night and day!
If I had to play with a Solo Amp now it would drive me crazy!

Like I said in another post, the Solo Amp is a coffee house rig.