Action height and the fine line of tone

[Yale C]

Alright, so I’ve been mucking around with a wrench and lowering the saddle of my D15 with sand paper, and I’ve been able to get the action down to 2.3 mm or so at the 12th fret, .012 of relief at the 7th fret (fretting at 1st and 14th fret), and about 0.45 action on the first fret (all low e string measurements, light Monel strings)

I’m not a tech by any means and just decided to go for it after some research, and one interesting thing my ears discover is that while I can go lower without buzz (like down to sub 2mm), the volume and tone suffer to a point where I keep raising the action back up, even though I like the playability of the low action.

Is this a common compromise, or should I try some other facet of set-up? On this Martin, there is definitely a loss of tone (however small) in exchange for some enhanced playability, and I of course want the best of both worlds if possible.

Am I doomed to choosing slightly better tone over slightly better playability?

[John Arnold]

The answer is a neck reset, which will lower the action while preserving the saddle height for best tone/volume. I generally set the relief around 0.006", so that will help a little. Also, the nut should be set at fret height.

[mtdmind]

Did you check your neck angle with a straight edge?

[AcousticDreams]

I have been doing my own saddles for a few years now. I have all the right tools to get exacting results.

YES Saddle height does effect tone.

However, Last year I got a huge lesson about the Nut height. Most people dish the importance of Nut groove height. This will make quite a difference in playability in the first few frets.

Think about it, it is the first few frets that often get played the most. The first fret is right there at the nut. The saddle..you fingers are much further away. Thus a nut that is way too high will be hard to fret in the fist few frets.

What you may find, if the nut height is adjust properly, you may not need to lower you saddle height too low.

In the scheme of things...all things matter where tone & ease of fingering is concerned. The Neck relief. The nut height. The Saddle Height. Nut and Saddle material can also make a huge difference in tone.

[3notes]

I have never liked low action. IMO, tone diminishes and I can't dig in as deep as I like to. Also, hammer on's become less effective. Like not an effect at all.

If you want playability, go for 11's. I was told today that my new GS-Mini came stock with 13's.!! Are you kidding me.?? I thought they were 12's and the tone was crap and the playability was crap. I put 11's on today and my struggles have disappeared and I'm getting a decent tone. Not great but I knew that would be the case.

To each his own....

[justonwo]

That’s quite a bit of relief. The limiting factor of any setup will ultimately be how the frets are leveled. It’s good to have some fall-away on the fretboard extension as well. If your frets aren’t perfectly level, that will limit your action. I can’t get the bass side action much lower than about 0.090” and treble side 0.070” without buzzing, but I pick aggressively. I typically set the relief to 0.004-0.006”. If your frets are less than optimal, you’ll need more relief. If you don’t have enough fall-away at the upper frets, you’ll get buzzing at the high strings. There’s a lot going on.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Yale C

Alright, so I’ve been mucking around with a wrench and lowering the saddle of my D15 with sand paper…

Am I doomed to choosing slightly better tone over slightly better playability?

Hi YC

Maybe…you did seem to indicate you were 'mucking around' I assume with truss rod & sanding saddles.

Unless one knows all the proper/advisable steps and the order of said steps in setting up action, you can end up frustrated for sure. Thankfully if all you've done is sand a saddle (even if you went too far) and adjust the truss rod, nothing you've done is fatal, injurious to the guitar, nor easily repairable.

Having my guitars examined and setup professionally by a luthier whom I trust (and it is a bit expensive) was the best thing I've ever done in regards to action being highly playable and tone intact.

Good techs don't leave out steps in setups, don't get heavy handed when leveling frets, and know how to check nut slot depth and how to dial in the action with your preferred weight of strings.

There are more things involved than random flattening of the fingerboard using truss rods, and then pulling out the sandpaper. Sometimes it improves things well enough that people are happy.

Did I mention fret dressing? A skilled tech or luthier can level frets several times over the life of the neck before a total re-fret is required, and it will have an impact on action. I've had the first 5-6 frets replaced 3 times in 27 years on my main guitar (my Olson).

According to my luthier, he can dress them one more time before a full refret will be needed (and I'm nearly 72 yrs old and don't anticipate I'll be needing the full re-fret). I do a lot of hammer-on and aggressive bending so when they are so dented the only remedy is to dress them again, that's when they are done. So far it's been about every 5 - 6 years.

I seriously doubt you need a neck reset (the ultimate expensive repair). If I had a tech who I don't know/trust suggest it, I'd take my guitar elsewhere for a second opinion.

That's my few-cents-worth of thoughts on the matter.

[rick-slo]

At 2.3mm at the 12th fret what is the height of the bottom of the sixth string above the soundboard at the bridge
and what is the height of the top of the saddle above the top of the bridge? Also about what is the break angle of
the strings from peg hole to top of saddle?

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Yale C

Alright, so IÂ’ve been mucking around with a wrench and lowering the saddle of my D15 with sand paper, and IÂ’ve been able to get the action down to 2.3 mm or so at the 12th fret, .012 of relief at the 7th fret (fretting at 1st and 14th fret), and about 0.45 action on the first fret (all low e string measurements, light Monel strings)

IÂ’m not a tech by any means and just decided to go for it after some research, and one interesting thing my ears discover is that while I can go lower without buzz (like down to sub 2mm), the volume and tone suffer to a point where I keep raising the action back up, even though I like the playability of the low action.

Is this a common compromise, or should I try some other facet of set-up? On this Martin, there is definitely a loss of tone (however small) in exchange for some enhanced playability, and I of course want the best of both worlds if possible.

Am I doomed to choosing slightly better tone over slightly better playability?

It sounds like you may have your set up sequence wrong. The sequence is usually relief then nut slots then saddle.

0.012 is a lot of relief. 0.006 or less would be more usual on a dreadnought of the quality you own. Measure the relief on the middle strings.

The nut slot heights not only impact greatly on the feel of the first few frets they also effect the action hieght at the 12th fret to a greater degree than you may expect. Martin guitars have a tenancy to be shipped with slightly high nut slots. So they are definitely worth checking after setting up the relief (capo fret 1 for that) and before altering the saddle.

The saddle hieght adjustment is the last job. You say you have been changing the action from 2.3mm down to 2mm and back up. If this has been by adjusting the truss rod rather than installing different heights of saddles then it suggests to me that your set up sequence has been wrong. You may have sanded your saddle too low by going at it too early.

I doubt very much that you'll need a neck reset on a Martin D15 unless it's a vintage guitar. And unless you are going very low action with very light strings then I would expect the Martin factory fret level on a D15 should be fine (I'd be very disappointed if it wasn't!).

You should be able to get an action of 2.3mm bass side and 1.8mm treble side with 0.006 relief on a dread that will give excellent playability (and a comfortable low feel) all the way up the neck from the nut.

From what you have written in your post It sounds to me like you possibly need to buy some nut files (they are quite expensive) and a new saddle and start again. Those of us who do set ups have all made errors and had to replace saddles and nuts we'd spent hours working on!

[freaktone]

Lots of great info here already but I'll put in my 2 cents worth and just say that yes, my experience when messing around with truss rods and relief is that you always have to compromise between action and tone. There is a point where the tone diminishes while lowering the action, even when you have perfect frets. I always go for the tone because that's what is the most satisfying aspect of playing.

[QUOTE=Yale C;6459916 Am I doomed to choosing slightly better tone over slightly better playability?[/QUOTE]

[Yale C]

Originally Posted by freaktone

Lots of great info here already but I'll put in my 2 cents worth and just say that yes, my experience when messing around with truss rods and relief is that you always have to compromise between action and tone. There is a point where the tone diminishes while lowering the action, even when you have perfect frets. I always go for the tone because that's what is the most satisfying aspect of playing.

That’s where I’m at, I’m happy with the action and volume with no buzzing, I’d take it over the loss of tone any day.

[Mike McLenison]

As a former machinist I set up my own acoustics. Nut slots clear the first fret by 015," neck straight as an arrow with no relief because neck bow lessens volume, saddle lowered if needed to string height of .060" above 12th fret and I file the last 6 frets down .007"and re-crown. The results are loud and clear with no fret buzz anywhere. I use 3mm picks so I can plow into the (13's) strings. I recently added a Platemate and titanium bridge pins. My Martin sounds like a harmonic hurricane.

[Yale C]

Thanks to everyone that responded, all very helpful info.

I did not work on the nut slots but I’m sure the action could get a little lower without buzzing, but I also worry about the tone and volume diminishing from where I am.

I’ve got some ideas and I’m sure I’ll learn a lot; about to procure some nut files and a tusq saddle and nut before I go further cause I know I cant go back, see what rabbit hole I can go down. I’ve always been a hands on person, and will make something work for me best as possible.

Right now, it’s quite playable compared to factory set up and is sounding pretty good.

[guitargeak99]

Originally Posted by Mike McLenison

......neck straight as an arrow with no relief because neck bow lessens volume,.....

No relief at all?

[J Patrick]

What I have found in general is that the better the overall setup is ....the closer the action can be set without sacrificing tone and volume....and the better the guitar is the easier it is to achieve an optimum setup...

...I also find that almost every guitar has its own individual issues that need to be assessed and addressed...the ability to identify and address setup issues is a skill that is acquired over time....as usual there is no substitute for experience...but you gotta start somewhere....the Stewmac and Frank Ford instruction videos are highly informative....