What is the best internal microphone for classical guitar that sounds very natural?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by idimata

I wouldn't use them all at once but choose the best one for the best occasion -- I came up with a table that points to how I would use them and will send it to you via PM, not to review in detail just to give a visual of what I was thinking

Well, you're certainly approaching it with a lot of organization! In practice, I'm not sure it's that complicated :-), but it looks like a great way to keep track of what you're trying. My one disagreement would be the recording rows - pickups are generally terrible for recording. Even the cheapest mic beats the best pickup every time.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Well, you're certainly approaching it with a lot of organization! In practice, I'm not sure it's that complicated :-), but it looks like a great way to keep track of what you're trying. My one disagreement would be the recording rows - pickups are generally terrible for recording. Even the cheapest mic beats the best pickup every time.

I've overcomplicated things my whole life and don't even know what simple feels like haha

I totally agree with you! I don't know how I didn't see that fault with my table until now, thank you!!! I should really reserve the piezos for live performance, unless it sounds exceptionally good but I think it would be impossible to beat a DPA 4661 or especially a DPA 4011A

[cdkrugjr]

Remember that the very best microphone in the Universe, placed by the best audio tach in the Universe and run through the very best sound system in the Universe . . .

Isn’t going to sound Quite like your guitar sounds from the playing position.

And the cookies you make using Nona’s recipe will never taste the same as you remember.

Sic sempre

Hopefully you’re somewhere you can listen to various options. There’s a reason why there are so many outstanding preamps out there

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No internal mic is going to sound great by itself, the inside of a guitar is not a good environment for a mic. ....

Thanks for chiming in Doug - I've been was disappointed with mics inside a guitar and it's good to hear the limitations are real (and not my own experiment failures).

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Well, you're certainly approaching it with a lot of organization! In practice, I'm not sure it's that complicated :-), but it looks like a great way to keep track of what you're trying. My one disagreement would be the recording rows - pickups are generally terrible for recording. Even the cheapest mic beats the best pickup every time.

Doug, I have another question: instead of cutting the MicroDot cable, am I able to connect an endpin jack to a 1/8" female connector, then to one of the adapters like the DAD 3050, then to the DPA 4661? Do you know if anyone has tried that and has been successful with applying 48V phantom power?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by idimata

Doug, I have another question: instead of cutting the MicroDot cable, am I able to connect an endpin jack to a 1/8" female connector, then to one of the adapters like the DAD3050, then to the DPA 4661? Do you know if anyone has tried that and has been successful with applying 48V phantom power?

The adaptor seems like that part should work - I haven't tried it, but it seems to be what it's intended for, getting 48 volt phantom converted to the microdot connector. But are you going to use this alone inside the guitar? Getting 48 volt phantom power into the guitar requires 3 wires, which you could do with a TRS jack (and an XLR to TRS cable or adaptor), but then if you want to combine it with another pickup, you'll need a 2nd jack. The mic alone, inside the guitar is unlikely to be satisfying.

I'm not sure what you'd be gaining here - tho I certainly don't want to discourage experimentation! You'll have a lot of unneeded extra wire inside the guitar, and you don't really gain anything with using phantom instead of 2-wire bias power, other than being able to plug into an XLR/48 volt phantom input without an adaptor. The mic is designed to work with the 2-wire scheme, so what you'd be doing is converting 48 volt XLR phantom to 2-wire 9 volt bias power, which you can just get to start with by using an appropriate guitar preamp, and it would all work with a single TRS jack, including another pickup. But it depends on what you're going for here...

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The adaptor seems like that part should work - I haven't tried it, but it seems to be what it's intended for, getting 48 volt phantom converted to the microdot connector. But are you going to use this alone inside the guitar? Getting 48 volt phantom power into the guitar requires 3 wires, which you could do with a TRS jack (and an XLR to TRS cable or adaptor), but then if you want to combine it with another pickup, you'll need a 2nd jack. The mic alone, inside the guitar is unlikely to be satisfying.

I'm not sure what you'd be gaining here - tho I certainly don't want to discourage experimentation! You'll have a lot of unneeded extra wire inside the guitar, and you don't really gain anything with using phantom instead of 2-wire bias power, other than being able to plug into an XLR/48 volt phantom input without an adaptor. The mic is designed to work with the 2-wire scheme, so what you'd be doing is converting 48 volt XLR phantom to 2-wire 9 volt bias power, which you can just get to start with by using an appropriate guitar preamp, and it would all work with a single TRS jack, including another pickup. But it depends on what you're going for here...

I didn't quite grasp what you said about 2-wire bias power, but I found a well-written article about it that helped me understand it a bit better. Thanks, Doug. I will try to figure out a good solution.

[Doug Young]

I completely forgot I wrote that :-) It is hard to explain this topic in a short post. It's a common point of confusion. Here's a few more sources of info in case my article still didn't cover it:

https://www.shure.com/en-US/performa...s-bias-voltage

https://service.shure.com/Service/s/...language=en_US

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

For live performance, in a venue where the audience can truly appreciate the sound quality, your DPA 4099 on a classical should be stunning all by itself.

My thoughts exactly - and if in addition the audience comes to appreciate quality of sound of a good instrument played by a capable player they'll be quiet enough that you might not even need amplification.
Oh, wait, I'm used to venues that have either very ample acoustics of themselves or (can) use subtle forms of active acoustics that don't provoke feedback O:^)

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by Dino757

However, the Viper mounting system is a hassle, and I'm continually messing around with the cable connection, which has a tendency to allow the balanced phono cable to pull out unexpectedly. Strings by mail sells another model from the same company that mounts completely internally (via the end pin jack) and still uses phantom power - it's called "the2Mic Endpin Deluxe." I ordered this last week, and I'll post an update here after installation if you or anyone else is interested. If this model sounds as good as the Viper, it might be a good solution.

Any updates on this Dino?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by thefsb

Any updates on this Dino?

Not Dino here, but I reviewed the 2Mic system ages ago, which you can see in this video, including showing the mic's installed and some sound examples:



From 2010, so You Tube's quality isn't all that great, but should give you some idea of this system. Ken Donnell, the 2Mic creator, has made quite a few variations of this system over the years, so I'm not sure of the exact setup Dino is trying, but they're all very similar, mostly differing in how they're powered and attached.

[idimata]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I completely forgot I wrote that :-) It is hard to explain this topic in a short post. It's a common point of confusion. Here's a few more sources of info in case my article still didn't cover it:

https://www.shure.com/en-US/performa...s-bias-voltage

https://service.shure.com/Service/s/...language=en_US

Yes these did help, thank you!

[conecaster]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

No internal mic is going to sound great by itself, the inside of a guitar is not a good environment for a mic. But since you already have another (2?) pickup, a mic can add air, and frankly, almost any mic will do that. The difference between the various options is going to be small.

The DPA 4060/61 is a popular choice, and works well. I have been using the Audix L5O, which is a bit cheaper ($200 new) and *much* easier to work with - thicker wires.

I have the Bartlett in one guitar, and that works great as well. I just don't use their clip, but mount it insidethe same way I do with others - a small wire clip and a bit of foam. I've also used the Sennheiser ME-2, which works well. I tried an inexpensive Rode mic, recently - forget the model - and that was good, too. People used to rave about the $19 Radio Shack lapel mic, which also worked well.

Basically, you end up rolling off most of the low end anyway, since the inside of a guitar is so boomy, and most mics will end up sounding more or less the same, adding a bit of liveliness and high end to the more solid pickup sound.

I agree, there are physical issues with the air vol inside a box when it comes to internal mikes.

how do you guys like this sound?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MMm...usp=drive_link

This is a Thames guitar, believe it or not its played through a fender deluxe amp.

BTW there is an internal mike.

[conecaster]

Originally Posted by RJVB

My thoughts exactly - and if in addition the audience comes to appreciate quality of sound of a good instrument played by a capable player they'll be quiet enough that you might not even need amplification.
Oh, wait, I'm used to venues that have either very ample acoustics of themselves or (can) use subtle forms of active acoustics that don't provoke feedback O:^)

I think we have to accept the reality that audiences are not going to come to the performer. The performer must attract the audience.



If classical music is to remain relevant I believe it will take performance to draw in and build a greater audience, especially a young audience.

My god, he plays standing up.



an obviously classical music effected young person.

when these were recorded his guitar playing experience was very short lived, I believe less than 5 years.

How many people can John Williams draw to the 92cnd street Y? Why did a most renown guitarist of incredible talent make a living as a studio musician?

Why did he turn to jazz in his career? was it to reach a larger audience?

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Not Dino here, but I reviewed the 2Mic system ages ago, which you can see in this video, including showing the mic's installed and some sound examples:



From 2010, so You Tube's quality isn't all that great, but should give you some idea of this system. Ken Donnell, the 2Mic creator, has made quite a few variations of this system over the years, so I'm not sure of the exact setup Dino is trying, but they're all very similar, mostly differing in how they're powered and attached.

Thanks.

I'm guessing what was mentioned earlier in this thread and in your video about 2Mic's feedback resistance is relative to using, say, an external mic 0.5 m from the guitar. The ratio of sound pressure level of the direct guitar sound incident on the mics relative to that from the loudspeakers is greater with internal mics. Or, to put it another way, internal mics are more isolated from external sound sources, such as amps and speakers. Or is there something more to 2Mic than that?

From listening to the sound samples you provided I had the impression that 2Mic with carefully adjusted EQ could produce a very nice result.