Got the Rainsong, and it's going right back.

[AndyFrank]

Originally Posted by Corvette

Thanks for your response.

Because this is a $2,400 guitar and not a $400 one, I am extremely surprised that they let these examples out the door.
I'm even more surprised that there are those who accept the flaws because "you can only see them under certain light and at a certain angle".

It's carbon fiber and carbon fiber is consistent.
The only thing that isn't consistent in their technique and their manufacturing process on the tops of these models.
I have no doubt that they'll eventually get this bug worked out.

In the meantime, they should either not let these "flawed" ones out the door, or they should put a disclaimer in their description that these tops may or may not have these issues.

Anyway, the guitar is packed up and Fedex will be here Tuesday to pick it up.

Cheers.

So where did you buy it? Do they have another one for you or are you giving up on graphite?

[Corvette]

Originally Posted by AndyFrank

So where did you buy it? Do they have another one for you or are you giving up on graphite?

I bought it from a well known dealer. Very nice salesman.
It was still wrapped up in the box, unopened.

I'm not giving up on CF guitars.
I'm just giving up on this model Rainsong.

This was actually going to be a gift for my son.

[AndyFrank]

Originally Posted by Corvette

I bought it from a well known dealer. Very nice salesman.
It was still wrapped up in the box, unopened.

I'm not giving up on CF guitars.
I'm just giving up on this model Rainsong.

This was actually going to be a gift for my son.

If your giving up on the unidirectional top because of the blemished guitar your dealer sent you than that would be a big mistake in my opinion, the concert series top is my favorite tonally. FYI I was at LA Guitar Sales yesterday and they had a CO-WS1000N2 on the wall with a perfect top.

[Kindness]

Originally Posted by AndyFrank

If your giving up on the unidirectional top because of the blemished guitar your dealer sent you than that would be a big mistake in my opinion, the concert series top is my favorite tonally. FYI I was at LA Guitar Sales yesterday and they had a CO-WS1000N2 on the wall with a perfect top.

The CO is a uni top...

[ChunkyB]

Originally Posted by itself

The CO is a uni top...

I think that was his point. He shouldn't give up on them because they have a great tone, and they're not all bad, as the example at Ted's shows.

[morlll]

Originally Posted by Corvette

With all due respect, that is not a standard variation in CF weaving.
That is a manufacturing flaw.
It has about as much character as Ford pre-denting your new car for you.

But it certainly does sound really nice. You CF guys were 100% correct.
No question.

Unfortunately, it's still going back.

You are so right. That is a run in the cloth. If it were in a jacket or pair of pants you wouldn't call it character. You would call it a second and expect to pay less than cost. It's a damage.

How about on the dash of you AMG Merc?

[Corvette]

Originally Posted by morlll

You are so right. That is a run in the cloth. If it were in a jacket or pair of pants you wouldn't call it character. You would call it a second and expect to pay less than cost. It's a damage.

How about on the dash of you AMG Merc?

I find it strange how a few are willing to accept these very obvious manufacturing problems as "character" rather than
going after Rainsong for selling a product before it's manufacturing process has been perfected.
And, they keep it because it "sounds good".
Unless you have the hearing of a bat, every CO-WS1000N2 sounds the same.
There's no reason to accept one that is flawed.

Just my opinion..........

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Corvette

I find it strange how a few are willing to accept these very obvious manufacturing problems as "character" rather than
going after Rainsong for selling a product before it's manufacturing process has been perfected.
And, they keep it because it "sounds good".
Unless you have the hearing of a bat, every CO-WS1000N2 sounds the same.
There's no reason to accept one that is flawed.

Just my opinion..........

Corvette, I see no reason to criticize other members who are not as picky as you and for the record Rainsongs manufacturing process has been perfected. FYI Rainsong is quick to discount a guitar if there is any flaw but in this case I doubt the guitar you got would qualify since the anomaly is going with the grain which is just part of using unidirectional tops finished with high gloss clear, something only Rainsong does BTW.

I suppose Rainsong could trash any top that does not look 100% perfect and raise the street price of unidirectional top guitars to offset the losses but I doubt that would be good for sales. Another idea would be to set prices based on the grade of the uni top, like wood guitar builders do in which case the one you bought could sell for say $2250 while a premium top version could be priced at $2750. Would you be willing to pay an extra $500 for a premium top carbon guitar? If you answered yes than boy do I have a gorgeous CO-WS1000N2 for you.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Corvette

I find it strange how a few are willing to accept these very obvious manufacturing problems as "character" rather than
going after Rainsong for selling a product before it's manufacturing process has been perfected.
And, they keep it because it "sounds good".
Unless you have the hearing of a bat, every CO-WS1000N2 sounds the same.
There's no reason to accept one that is flawed.

Just my opinion..........

Corvette,

I've heard differences in tone between two RainSongs of the same model. Although carbon fiber is more consistent than wood in its properties, a finished carbon guitar can sound different than another like-model guitar depending on how the carbon fiber is laid-up in the molds. Having owned 10 RainSongs and a couple of Composite Acoustics, I can verify this. The tonal variations of carbon guitars won't be as noticeable as they can be in wooden like-model guitars but they do exist and really shouldn't be a matter of concern for a potential carbon-guitar buyer. Think of carbon guitars as being more Taylor-like in their consistency than Taylors.

Regards,

RainDance (aka SpruceTop)

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by wcap

I've never played or even seen a Rainsong in person, but I did try out some CA guitars some years back (before the company shut down). They seemed like nice guitars, but I did not like the textured weave sort of look they had.

In contrast, these unidirectional top Rainsongs in these photos look really classy, and I love the rosettes, and how the color(s) of the rosettes look with the grey/black color of the guitar.

Are those rosettes shell material or something else?

The rosettes of high-end RainSongs are inlaid Abalone shell and display iridescence depending on how the light hits them. They're very beautiful in the black carbon-fiber setting!

Regards,

RainDance (aka SpruceTop)

[Corvette]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Corvette, I see no reason to criticize other members who are not as picky as you and for the record Rainsongs manufacturing process has been perfected. FYI Rainsong is quick to discount a guitar if there is any flaw but in this case I doubt the guitar you got would qualify since the anomaly is going with the grain which is just part of using unidirectional tops finished with high gloss clear, something only Rainsong does BTW.

I suppose Rainsong could trash any top that does not look 100% perfect and raise the street price of unidirectional top guitars to offset the losses but I doubt that would be good for sales. Another idea would be to set prices based on the grade of the uni top, like wood guitar builders do in which case the one you bought could sell for say $2250 while a premium top version could be priced at $2750. Would you be willing to pay an extra $500 for a premium top carbon guitar? If you answered yes than boy do I have a gorgeous CO-WS1000N2 for you.

Ted,

Premium Carbon Fiber top?
Made from only hand selected AAAA Carbon Fiber?

CF It is not a product of nature like the wood used in the making of a guitar.
A buyer of a wooden guitar knows that it will be imperfect.

Carbon fiber is an entirely man made product.
If there's a flaw in the Carbon Fiber, you don't use it in production.
If there is no flaw in the Carbon Fiber but there is after the guitar is completed, then it's due to assembly technique.

Would I spend an additional $500 for a flawless top? No.
No more than I wouldn't spend an additional $500 for a new car because the factory didn't scratch it before it left the assembly plant.

But, then again, if I was a Rainsong dealer and had to deal with returns, my attitude regarding what is a flawed and what is not would very likely be much different.

To those who feel I was being critical because *IMO*, I feel they were sold a flawed product and I pointed that out, I apologize.

Please, no hard feelings.....
Cheers

[chitz]

Looks flawed to my untrained eye. Just return it.

Glad I read this thread. I'm considering a CF guitar. I'll watch for this anomaly.

[Corvette]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Corvette,

I've heard differences in tone between two RainSongs of the same model. Although carbon fiber is more consistent than wood in its properties, a finished carbon guitar can sound different than another like-model guitar depending on how the carbon fiber is laid-up in the molds. Having owned 10 RainSongs and a couple of Composite Acoustics, I can verify this. The tonal variations of carbon guitars won't be as noticeable as they can be in wooden like-model guitars but they do exist and really shouldn't be a matter of concern for a potential carbon-guitar buyer. Think of carbon guitars as being more Taylor-like in their consistency than Taylors.

Regards,

RainDance (aka SpruceTop)

You might very well be right.
I've only played one.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Corvette

Ted,

Premium Carbon Fiber top?
Made from only hand selected AAAA Carbon Fiber?

Was just having some fun but the more I think about it the more a grading system for unidirectional carbon fiber tops makes sense to me.

[jonfields45]

There was a new Taylor Cocobolo guitar pictured in a parallel thread "Did You Buy Your RainSong for Tone". To me, that guitar was made out of some of the worst flat sawn wood I've ever seen. I grew up looking at nice quarter sawn Indian Rosewood D-28s and years of Martin marketing has taught me flat sawn wood is unacceptable, true or not is not material, it is my training. That Taylor would never have lasted an hour at my home before being packed up to ship back and would be an example, to me, of poor quality control. The RainSong that started this thread looks fine to me and would be a keeper. Lots of wiggle room out there when it comes down to the eye of the beholder... Lets not get started on Adirondack spruce!

Having worked 29 years in the semiconductor industry where yield and cost are tightly related, I can imagine a worst case where RainSong does not know how the top will look with a finish on it, until the finish goes on. My guess is if they knew sooner, they would be able to economically cull it out. Concert top guitars should probably be bought with at least a photograph, if not in-person, if you are bringing to them the same kind of critical eye I had for the Taylor in the first paragraph. Though I'm pretty sure that Taylor is actually a very fine guitar... Jon