Ibanez FRH10N - First Impression

[btbliatout]

I apologize if this section (Classical) isn't the right section to post this in, however it seems we do discuss all things nylon here, and the FRH10N is absolutely a nylon string guitar (if not a "classical" guitar). Anyhow, on to my first impressions...

Out-of-the-Box Condition

• Exec Summary: Looked great, action was high, intonation was really bad, needs an immediate setup.
• Cosmetically looked great everywhere except the space carved out to access the truss rod adjustment. I got the rose gold variant, and the paint was applied to the truss rod adjustment hole, fully coated, but fairly uneven, almost like the wood was too porous and an even smooth coat of paint couldn't be applied.
• Action was good for me, felt like a normal classical guitar's action. That means most others would be very upset though, as non-classical folks feel classical action is very high.
• The intonation was fairly bad. Particularly the G string, probably 20 cents sharp at the 12th fret.
• If you get this model, don't bother bringing it home until it's been setup by a decent luthier/tech. I got an immediate setup, and that fixed the intonation, and they brought the action down a little (feels more like how my flamenco guitar is vs my classical).

Playability/Feel

• Exec Summary: Super comfortable and fast, but string-to-string spacing is too narrow for classical repertoire.
• Very light weight (it's hollow). A pro for anyone who has issues with heavy instruments.
• Crossover neck (46mm at nut). I find the thinner neck to be generally easier to play basic things on, but I really miss the extra width when doing pull-offs/trills, or doing anything intermediate (and harder) with my right hand. So for me it's not good at all for classical repertoire, but great for couch playing and entertaining your friends in the living room.
• Thin body (very comfortable). It begs to be held like an electric guitar (neck low), not like a classical.

Acoustic Sound

• Exec Summary: Sounds like a cardboard box.
• It's loud enough to practice without an amp, but it really doesn't sound very good. Don't get this hoping it's going to be a halfway decent acoustic instrument. It's not only quiet, but it really sounds muffled compared to my classical and flamenco instruments.

Plugged-In Sound

• Exec Summary: Sounds like an under-saddle piezo (it is an under-saddle piezo).
• The body of the guitar and the specific pickup does nothing to get away from the traditional characteristics of an under saddle-piezo. With zero affects applied, I'd not be able to tell the difference from this nylon guitar from most other inexpensive nylon guitars. Accordingly, precise EQ and some form of IR will be needed to approach what a Godin Multiac might achieve.
• Don't get this instrument thinking that you can get a non-piezo sound, unless you plan to do a lot of processing to get there. - Don't let that scare you. There's a lot of great equipment and software that can do a lot of magic.
• I found that running this instrument through various amp modelers could tame the piezo affect a little. I can't articulate it too well, but some clean amp models did seem to dampen some of the harsher high frequencies, and various cab models seemed to dampen the piezo quack a little bit. Your mileage may vary.

CONCLUSION

• The FRH10N is the most comfortable nylon string guitar I've handled. If comfort is a priority of yours, you should consider it.
• As far as tone goes, unless you already have the equipment/software needed to make an under-saddle piezo pleasing to your ears (or plan to get it), this instrument is probably not for you.

I hope what I've written above might be helpful to someone. Thanks for reading.

[Rudy4]

Thanks for your review, good job!
This is a close as you're going to get for the correct forum to post a crossover review.

Pretty much what I've seen reflected on Youtube for THIS model and the similar but higher priced "Tim Hensen" version. I think where they are weakest is the electronics. I'd opt to spend a bit more and get one of the Cordoba Stage models.

[gmr]

Thanks for that nice evaluation! I had a chance to play one of the Ibanez models alongside one of the Cordoba Stage models yesterday for really short time at a GC. I will qualify my comments by saying that I am not an accomplished player; just a living room doodler.
Acoustically, I could hear the Cordoba a bit more (there was a bit of noise from a nearby humidifier, so my surroundings were not comparable to a late night at home. The Ibanez was softer. I tried to get my face in the sweet spot of that little sound hole on the upper bout, but it didn’t seem to offer a lot unplugged. But that’s not really the point of these guitars…

Plugged in, the cordoba seemed “rounder/richer”. but it could get to be a bit muddy with the tone and blend controls. The blend control brought a bunch of body noise into the equation. I’m not much on the whole tapping/percussion thing, so I found it not very useful for me. The Ibanez sounded pretty well balanced and clean. I played into a Fishmann mini (I think??) with no chorus and just a wee hint of reverb, with the eq controls at noon. I didn’t find too much of the quackish piezoelectric pickup sound in either one. It was there for sure, but not as bad as some other guitars. Both could be quite useable just as they are, through a decent acoustic amp. I agree wholeheartedly on the nut width. If you’re looking for a pure feeling and sounding classical guitar, there are better alternatives.
Either of these would be a nice addition if you just want to explore nylon tones into your acoustic playing, especially fingerstyle stuff. I thought the Cordoba would be a clear winner for me. But I’d want to run some type of mild processing with either one, so the Ibanez seems the better deal. I wish they’d had the Traditional Stage model, and maybe a C5CET Limited model to try. I liked them but not yet ready to commit to a purchase of one just yet. They are both quite keen looking. Aesthetically, I think the Cordoba gets my attention. The Ibanez felt more familiar for some reason.

[btbliatout]

GMR,
I totally agree that the Cordoba sounds richer. It's got substantially better electronics for plug and play capability. For plug and play tone, the Cordoba Stage definitely wins. I think the FRH10N could likely be more comfortable for a lot of folks though, and I think that's the only thing it's got going for it I think. Well, and that it's comparatively quite cheaper.


ALL,
A few things to add after a few more days with the FRH10N:

• It did have a bit of a wolf note/tone when playing open A. A minor tweak of the truss rod mitigated it substantially. Not sure how many others will experience that.
• The tie block at the bridge notably does not have any sort of bone or other substitute to mitigate wear-and-tear from the strings tying tightly around it. For the sake of longevity, I highly recommend tie beads be used to avoid excess wear. Just from the original strings and the one change of strings I got from having a setup done (tied by the luthier), I can see fairly deep groves cut into the tie block from the strings.
• In an attempt to keep things simple, I experimented with the inexpensive Fender Mustang LT25 practice amp (no extras), and found a fairly acceptable tone.
  • I used the Twin Clean amp model (based on 1965 Fender Twin Reverb), and the Myth Drive (based on Klon Centaur pedal).
  • The amp model somehow mellowed out the harsh piezo sounds of the wound bass strings. I noticed one can get some harsh tones depending on how their nails are shaped, how recently they were buffed, and the angle of attack. While this model didn't eliminate it, it did have a minimizing effect on the harshness that could sometimes occur.
  • By keeping the Myth Drive at super low gain (almost nothing), the Drive added some "body" to the tone while still letting it sound clean.
  • Delay and Reverb was added to taste within the amp.
  • Tone snobs are not likely going to be satisfied, however I wanted to bring this up because I think it's important for folks to know that this not very expensive guitar can be paired with a rather inexpensive practice amp, and one can probably get a tone that they aren't embarrassed with when considering the total cost of guitar and amp. Totally worth my time to experiment with, as now I know I can avoid lugging around a multi-effects amp modeling pedalboard for casual playing and jam sessions. Just need the instrument and a lightweight practice amp.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by btbliatout

GMR,
I totally agree that the Cordoba sounds richer. It's got substantially better electronics for plug and play capability. For plug and play tone, the Cordoba Stage definitely wins. I think the FRH10N could likely be more comfortable for a lot of folks though, and I think that's the only thing it's got going for it I think. Well, and that it's comparatively quite cheaper.


ALL,
A few things to add after a few more days with the FRH10N:

• It did have a bit of a wolf note/tone when playing open A. A minor tweak of the truss rod mitigated it substantially. Not sure how many others will experience that.
• The tie block at the bridge notably does not have any sort of bone or other substitute to mitigate wear-and-tear from the strings tying tightly around it. For the sake of longevity, I highly recommend tie beads be used to avoid excess wear. Just from the original strings and the one change of strings I got from having a setup done (tied by the luthier), I can see fairly deep groves cut into the tie block from the strings.
• In an attempt to keep things simple, I experimented with the inexpensive Fender Mustang LT25 practice amp (no extras), and found a fairly acceptable tone.
  • I used the Twin Clean amp model (based on 1965 Fender Twin Reverb), and the Myth Drive (based on Klon Centaur pedal).
  • The amp model somehow mellowed out the harsh piezo sounds of the wound bass strings. I noticed one can get some harsh tones depending on how their nails are shaped, how recently they were buffed, and the angle of attack. While this model didn't eliminate it, it did have a minimizing effect on the harshness that could sometimes occur.
  • By keeping the Myth Drive at super low gain (almost nothing), the Drive added some "body" to the tone while still letting it sound clean.
  • Delay and Reverb was added to taste within the amp.
  • Tone snobs are not likely going to be satisfied, however I wanted to bring this up because I think it's important for folks to know that this not very expensive guitar can be paired with a rather inexpensive practice amp, and one can probably get a tone that they aren't embarrassed with when considering the total cost of guitar and amp. Totally worth my time to experiment with, as now I know I can avoid lugging around a multi-effects amp modeling pedalboard for casual playing and jam sessions. Just need the instrument and a lightweight practice amp.

Thank you, all good information to add!

The bridge is listed as walnut, and with a long time association with instrument building, I have reservations in use for a classical style bridge with tied strings. Most classical bridges that I'm familiar with don't have the tie block inlay extend to the back edge of the bridge so I don't think that's the problem. Walnut can vary a lot in it's ability to resist deformation, so that might be a bigger factor in the case of this bridge. Rosewood or ebony is more the norm as a classical bridge material.

String beads would solve that, but I'm not a fan of the look. Cleanly tied and finished strings are more preferable to me.

I've come close to picking up a Cordoba Stage when there was B stock listed at $500, but there are a few things that kept me back from that. Sitting in my easy chair and playing has really made me love the unique tonality of an acoustic nylon strung guitar, so the combination of that, coupled with 24-1/4" scale length and 1-7/8" nut width of my Cordoba Cadete has made it a lot more difficult to pick up one of the acoustic-electric nylon strung instruments.

I DO play amplified fairly often, so that's a bit of a dilemma for a nylon strung guitar. I'm in the process right now of adding the JJB version of the K&K classical guitar 4 transducer pickup to my Cadete. I use a K&K Pure in my steel string for home and gigging and love them. I'm hoping the 4 transducer pickup works for the Cadete as well. Part of the problem with the 4 transducer pickup for "classical braced" acoustic guitars is the actual installation, but I have a brand new sensor positioning jig that I think will be very easy to use and it's something I've never seen done before.

[btbliatout]

Rudy4,
Thanks for the info on walnut! I didn't know that before, and now I know something to look out for in the future.



All,
I'm far far FAR from an accomplished player, but I uploaded a few brief direct input recordings to my google drive in case anyone is interested:

FRH10N Demo Clips

I used the cheapo Fender Mustang LT25 as described in my previous post, and simply plugged directly into my PC via USB cable, and recorded with Audacity (free software). The recordings aren't anything special, but they should help support that the sounds you hear on YouTube and the like are somewhat accurate.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by btbliatout

Rudy4,
Thanks for the info on walnut! I didn't know that before, and now I know something to look out for in the future.

All,
I'm far far FAR from an accomplished player, but I uploaded a few brief direct input recordings to my google drive in case anyone is interested:

FRH10N Demo Clips

I used the cheapo Fender Mustang LT25 as described in my previous post, and simply plugged directly into my PC via USB cable, and recorded with Audacity (free software). The recordings aren't anything special, but they should help support that the sounds you hear on YouTube and the like are somewhat accurate.

Thanks, it sounds surprisingly good for a direct recording.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by btbliatout

Rudy4,
Thanks for the info on walnut! I didn't know that before, and now I know something to look out for in the future.



All,
I'm far far FAR from an accomplished player, but I uploaded a few brief direct input recordings to my google drive in case anyone is interested:

FRH10N Demo Clips

I used the cheapo Fender Mustang LT25 as described in my previous post, and simply plugged directly into my PC via USB cable, and recorded with Audacity (free software). The recordings aren't anything special, but they should help support that the sounds you hear on YouTube and the like are somewhat accurate.

That's not a bad recording sound. It's a little "quacky" but I wonder with the right Eq'ing if a lot of that could be mitigated.

I'm currently campaigning for a Cordoba Stage.

[mr. beaumont]

Interesting instrument...looking at pictures, there's a soundport? And no controls for the pickup?

[btbliatout]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...looking at pictures, there's a soundport? And no controls for the pickup?

You nailed it. With regards to the sound port, I think it only has meaningful impact if one is trying to practice quietly/unplugged. It doesn't appear to apply for anything else that I can think of.

About the pickup, it's my opinion that it's intended to only be Step 1 in a larger chain that is micromanaged by the user. The instrument is not trying in any way to be anything more than exactly what it is, a piezo in a COMFORTABLE body. Adding EQ, IR, and a cab does wonders.

A Cordoba Stage or Godin Multiac Duet Ambience will get you a much more developed tone straight out of their output jacks than the FRH10N. For most, I think those other options will be better for them.

After having played around with a PADI and experimenting with a multi-effects unit (effects, amps, cabs, etc...), I kind of like keeping the instrument's electronics simple, and having the other tone shaping aspects outside of the instrument. What it's done is allowed me to create somewhat of a preset for any simple nylon guitar with an under-saddle piezo, and I'm less reliant on the proprietary electronics of a specific guitar to get an acceptable tone. But it's a lot more tweaking and effort to do it this way, so I can't recommend it. It might be a better long-term setup for folks on a budget though, because if this FRH10N ever becomes irreparable, I can go get any other relatively inexpensive piezo-only instrument and get running somewhat quickly. I wouldn't need to drop the cash to buy a whole new Godin.

[davephoto]

This thread was one of the few things that came up when I was looking for discussion on the FRH10N.

I bought one recently for a pit orchestra musical theatre run. I've had the guitar now for almost a month and I can't put it down!

I'll add a few things to this super-informative thread:

• Mine came with a super fast, nearly-flat neck, low action (low E @ 2.5 mm above 12th fret), excellent intonation.
• I'm not a classical player, so I appreciated how natural the 46mm nut felt when switching between nylon, steel, and electrics during shows.
• Most importantly, it sounds incredible FOH run through a Helix with a simple acoustic IR (Cordoba from 3 Sigma).
• I thought fit and finish was reasonable given its price tag. Fretwork felt perfect in the humidified acoustic guitar room of the store, but after a month in the much drier environment of my home, it has since developed a touch of sprout.

I also spent quite a bit of time at the shop comparing this FRH10N to a beautiful new Godin Multiac Mundial in Arctik Blue. No doubt, the fit and finish of the Godin was a cut above, as was the Godin's tone-shaping controls and raw plugged-in sound. The FRH10N was louder unplugged, though.

So while I walked into the music store ready to buy a Multiac, I ended up walking out with this FRH10N. It's almost one-third the price and really has no business sounding this good FOH.