Why doesn't Martin make cedar top guitars?

[ikravchik]

I have never seen a cedar top Martin, is there a reason why they stick mostly to spruce and hog?

[acousticjazz]

I know they have made some, I'll wait for a martin owner or two to chime in, they do exist though.

[ikravchik]

Even their build to order section doesn't offer cedar, strange...

[Ramesses]

They'd be due for a neck reset after about 5 years.

[harmonics101]

Probably the same reason Gibson doesn't offer (many) cedar top guitars,

H

(Tradition)

[Wade Hampton]

Good question. Martin experimented a bit with cedar tops in the late 80's and/or early 90's, but those guitars are fairly rare.

My guess is that's it's probably a combination of a relative lack of demand by most of Martin's fan base combined with some reservations on Martin's part about cedar itself. Cedar does have some different characteristics than spruce: for one thing it doesn't have as much tensile strength as spruce and so has to be left a bit thicker than the spruce and mahogany tops Martin is considerably more used to dealing with.

Cedar also has a naturally occurring oil or some sort of substance within it that makes adhesion more difficult than on spruce tops. This may be the naturally occurring insecticide that's present in cedar trees (also found in redwood) that keeps bugs from chowing down on cedar and redwood trees, but whatever it is there's a greater rate of glue joint failures with cedar tops than there is with spruce tops.

This is something I've experienced for myself, both with a cedar-topped Tacoma Papoose and a custom-made cedar and koa Wayne Henderson guitar that Wayne built for me, so I'm not speaking theoretically here, but from first hand experience.

Naturally, there are ways around this and many guitar hand builders and guitar companies have had great success using cedar for tops on acoustic guitars. I currently own four cedar-topped instruments, the Tacoma Papoose I mentioned (once I got it fixed it stayed fixed); a Takamine parlor guitar and two cedar-topped Blue Lion mountain dulcimers. I think it's a wonderful top wood.

But I suspect that Martin decided it wasn't worth the hassle, not for the guitars they build, anyway.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[rick-slo]

They used to dabble in cedar.

Probably mostly warranty issues and then lack of demand.

The bare wood gets dented just by looking at it - i.e. production quality control issues.

Bridges are more likely to come off, and when they do they are more likely to peel off some of the top with them.

Cedar adds warmth but less dynamics. Many Martins are already on the warmer sounding side with spruce tops.

Speculation - the Martin company didn't email me the answers.

[email4eric]

I concur with Wade's assessment of Western Red Cedar with regard to oils, difficulty, and joining adhesion. However, as he alluded, there are successfully joined cedar tops out there. As such it's do-able. But probably not something the big producers are interested in. Cedar tops are finicky, soft and damage prone. But tonally unique nonetheless.

Western Red Cedar does have some interesting characteristics with regard to pathogenic features. It is unique in terms of resistance to pathogens be they in soils or by other plants -- it's a rot-resistant wood. As for insect resistance, it's very susceptible to insects that have co-evolved with them. Ants are primary consumers of these cedars and attract numerous woodpeckers that prey upon them. Insects and secondary predators like woodpeckers are the primary means by which this species decomposes.

But I digress....

I want cedar to be a primary tone wood but it's not in nature's cards in most cases. Of course there are exceptions.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by email4eric

I concur with Wade's assessment of Western Red Cedar with regard to oils, difficulty, and joining adhesion. However, as he alluded, there are successfully joined cedar tops out there. As such it's do-able. But probably not something the big producers are interested in. Cedar tops are finicky, soft and damage prone. But tonally unique nonetheless.

To this I'd add that some large scale manufacturers have achieved both tonal and business success using cedar tops, notably Takamine and Seagull/Simon & Patrick (Godin.) But neither of those companies are trying to make guitars that sound just like Martins while Martin, understandably enough, IS.

So Martin might not feel that cedar gives them the tone they're seeking, either. Martin protects that brand identity fairly strenuously, more so than many people might expect, and having had long conversations with several folks in Martin's top management over the years my guess is that they could get past the (fairly minor) technical hassles of building with cedar easily enough if they wanted to, and WOULD get past them if they felt cedar gave them "the Martin sound."

The fact that they no longer offer cedar even as a Custom Shop option indicates that they don't think it does.

Originally Posted by email4eric

Western Red Cedar does have some interesting characteristics with regard to pathogenic features. It is unique in terms of resistance to pathogens be they in soils or by other plants -- it's a rot-resistant wood. As for insect resistance, it's very susceptible to insects that have co-evolved with them. Ants are primary consumers of these cedars and attract numerous woodpeckers that prey upon them. Insects and secondary predators like woodpeckers are the primary means by which this species decomposes.

But I digress....

No, that's interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks.

A few months ago I read an article about why there's variation in how hot different examples within the same species of chili peppers in Central America can be. In other words, why does this specimen of the (let's say) Cucaracha pepper collected on this particular mountainside in Costa Rica have more Scoville units than this other specimen collected ten miles away?

Somebody went out and did the field work, and it turns out that it has to do with the presence of fungus: the more inviting the immediate microclimate is to fungal infection, the more Scoville units and "hotter" that particular plant's peppers will be.

Which I found fascinating. I had assumed (without giving it any real thought,) that Scoville units of heat were an anti-insect defense, just as the presence of caffeine is. (Caffeine is like nerve gas to bugs, and they wisely stay the hell away from it. But that same stimulant that would send a bug into a total central nervous system meltdown is a pleasant pick-me-up for mammals our size....)

But Scoville units of pepper heat seem to be a fungicide, instead.

And in my case, with my bland taste buds, they're basically a Wade-icide, as well.....

Originally Posted by email4eric

I want cedar to be a primary tone wood but it's not in nature's cards in most cases. Of course there are exceptions.

Well, it's a great tonewood, but I agree, it's not as mass-market a tonewood as spruce.


whm

[ikravchik]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

To this I'd add that some large scale manufacturers have achieved both tonal and business success using cedar tops, notably Takamine and Seagull/Simon & Patrick (Godin.) But neither of those companies are trying to make guitars that sound just like Martins while Martin, understandably enough, IS.

So Martin might not feel that cedar gives them the tone they're seeking, either. Martin protects that brand identity fairly strenuously, more so than many people might expect, and having had long conversations with several folks in Martin's top management over the years my guess is that they could get past the (fairly minor) technical hassles of building with cedar easily enough if they wanted to, and WOULD get past them if they felt cedar gave them "the Martin sound."

The fact that they no longer offer cedar even as a Custom Shop option indicates that they don't think it does.



No, that's interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks.

A few months ago I read an article about why there's variation in how hot different examples within the same species of chili peppers in Central America can be. In other words, why does this specimen of the (let's say) Cucaracha pepper collected on this particular mountainside in Costa Rica have more Scoville units than this other specimen collected ten miles away?

Somebody went out and did the field work, and it turns out that it has to do with the presence of fungus: the more inviting the immediate microclimate is to fungal infection, the more Scoville units and "hotter" that particular plant's peppers will be.

Which I found fascinating. I had assumed (without giving it any real thought,) that Scoville units of heat were an anti-insect defense, just as the presence of caffeine is. (Caffeine is like nerve gas to bugs, and they wisely stay the hell away from it. But that same stimulant that would send a bug into a total central nervous system meltdown is a pleasant pick-me-up for mammals our size....)

But Scoville units of pepper heat seem to be a fungicide, instead.

And in my case, with my bland taste buds, they're basically a Wade-icide, as well.....



Well, it's a great tonewood, but I agree, it's not as mass-market a tonewood as spruce.


whm

I love how scientific this thread has become. I feel like I am reading Wikipedia... good stuff

[6L6]

I played a Martin Custom Parlor guitar sporting a cedar top a couple days ago at Westside Music on London's Denmark St. Best sounding Parlor I've ever played!

[Rod Neep]

A Martin Western Red Cedar that founds its way into my stable some years back.

Rod

[ikravchik]

I think it's strange that Martin doesn't want to get involved with cedar, when manufacturers like Seagull make almost exclusively cedar topped guitars.

[B Chas]

I'll agree with Wade (now that's going out on a limb) that it's a signature tone thing. In addition to the brands Wade mentions who use Cedar as a top wood, Taylor makes their 700 series with Cedar sound boards. They have lots of 700s that have been around for decades without structural failure, then there's all those customs and small shops too. I guess Martin and Gibson know enough about their business to make the right decisions for their market.

[flagstaffcharli]

Originally Posted by Rod Neep

A Martin Western Red Cedar that founds its way into my stable some years back.

Rod

Rod,

That's a beautiful guitar. Mind me asking when it was built? Looks like a late night on the couch fingerpicking dream machine.