For recording instrumental guitar - large or small condenser

[TBman]

Which do you prefer?

[RRuskin]

Small capsule at a suitable distance in a quiet room.

[rick-slo]

https://www.neumann.com/homestudio/e...gm-microphones

Usually use small diameter.

You could use one of each if the frequency responses are reasonably similar in the midranges.

[Doug Young]

I like them both :-) I'm actually setup right now with both large and small pretty close to the same locations, and record both, then choose. It's probably more about my mood at the moment, who knows, but on some tunes, or maybe some guitars, I prefer one or the other.

Conventional wisdom is SD, but lots of classic recordings were done before SDs were around, and lots of people still use the large. I've seen plenty of photos of recording sessions with Tommy Emmanuel, Tony McManus and other fingerstyle guys using LDs.

For the most part, I think you'd find that the differences are smaller between the class of mic than between specific mics, and totally dwarfed by mic placement, room acoustics, and guitar.

[RodB]

I prefer using my SD pair, I find set-up easier without having the suspension mountings for the LDs and the ability to set the SDs close in for near-coincident configurations on the same bar.

I like the sound I get with the SDs but haven’t compared the SDs and LDs directly on the same ‘take’ as I only have 2 inputs on my interfaces.

[alohachris]

Aloha Barry,

You can use just about any brand or kind of mic for recording an acoustic guitar & it can work, whether it costs $100 or $20K, is an SDC or LDC. Condenser is preferred. Your AT2035's are alright SDC's.

I'll be very specific about my mic preferences for recording a guitar. The best mic's I ever heard, used or owned were a matched pair of Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41 hypercardioid or MK 2 omni capsules (in good space only) SDC's in an A-B spaced pair - 12-20" out. Schoeps checks every box for me - perfect! Of course, used in a treated room through a planned, pro-level signal chain. A pair of Microtech-Gefell M295 cardioid SDC's came in a close second.

Oh, & this includes the requisite great guitar, new strings, some talent & lotsa practice & preparation - & pristine sounding, matched mic preamps.

My favorite LDC's on acoustic guitar were a matched pair of vintage, mint 1972 Neumann U87 variable pattern tube LDC's. Very complete & un-hyped, rich acoustic sound. A pair of 2010 Mojave MA-200 cardioid tube LDC's (recommended) were also surprisingly really good sounding. But again, require a treated space.

A properly treated space (not a small untreated spare bedroom or garage) can cure or help avoid a lot of problems that cannot be fixed by add-on "repair" app's or plug-in's. It will tame early reflections, maximize your signal chain, separate the frequencies, give you clarity & reveal nuances, open up the sound & give you that elusive consistency when using mic's for recording, Barry.

You've experimented w/ many editing plug-in's for electronic repairs & fixes like the Izotope RX7 (I can hear them "working" in your recordings usually). Instead of "repairing," howabout experimenting with some OC703 (available in L.I. City) & a glue gun to make some nice, portable DIY broadband absorbers, Bah? That would provide an organic, 'preventive' solution to problems that electronics cannot fully or naturally repair or fix. Plus, you can record anywhere.

BTW, I really enjoy your playing, Barry. The recordings are improving.

alohachris

[runamuck]

I can't hear why small diaphragm condensers are preferred. They're more convenient to set up because they're small and light easy to move around. I've used both SD and LD mics for recording guitar and gotten good results with both.

[Bob Womack]

I use both and each for a reason.

The LDC has a flatter response and typically doesn't have as sparkly an upper end. That's great when you got a bright guitar that needs to be rounded off or when the concept is for a rounder sound. It does typically pick up more room effects.

The SDC typically has a sparkly upper end and a tighter lower midrange. When I see a dread with a big flabby bottom end come in the door and the artist or producer is wanting a bright, chirpy sound, I reach for an SDC. Most times when I'm recording the acoustic guitar as a rhythm instrument in an ensemble I'll reach for the SDC. It requires less EQ to fit in the band.

Bob

[TBman]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Barry,

You can use just about any brand or kind of mic for recording an acoustic guitar & it can work, whether it costs $100 or $20K, is an SDC or LDC. Condenser is preferred. Your AT2035's are alright SDC's.

I'll be very specific about my mic preferences for recording a guitar. The best mic's I ever heard, used or owned were a matched pair of Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK41 hypercardioid or MK 2 omni capsules (in good space only) SDC's in an A-B spaced pair - 12-20" out. Schoeps checks every box for me - perfect! Of course, used in a treated room through a planned, pro-level signal chain. A pair of Microtech-Gefell M295 cardioid SDC's came in a close second.

Oh, & this includes the requisite great guitar, new strings, some talent & lotsa practice & preparation - & pristine sounding, matched mic preamps.

My favorite LDC's on acoustic guitar were a matched pair of vintage, mint 1972 Neumann U87 variable pattern tube LDC's. Very complete & un-hyped, rich acoustic sound. A pair of 2010 Mojave MA-200 cardioid tube LDC's (recommended) were also surprisingly really good sounding. But again, require a treated space.

A properly treated space (not a small untreated spare bedroom or garage) can cure or help avoid a lot of problems that cannot be fixed by add-on "repair" app's or plug-in's. It will tame early reflections, maximize your signal chain, separate the frequencies, give you clarity & reveal nuances, open up the sound & give you that elusive consistency when using mic's for recording, Barry.

You've experimented w/ many editing plug-in's for electronic repairs & fixes like the Izotope RX7 (I can hear them "working" in your recordings usually). Instead of "repairing," howabout experimenting with some OC703 (available in L.I. City) & a glue gun to make some nice, portable DIY broadband absorbers, Bah? That would provide an organic, 'preventive' solution to problems that electronics cannot fully or naturally repair or fix. Plus, you can record anywhere.

BTW, I really enjoy your playing, Barry. The recordings are improving.

alohachris

Chris When I retire I'm going to make the panels.

And thanks about my recordings improving. Amazing what more practice does for recordings,

[alohachris]

Aloha Barry,

I'll stop bugging' you Barry. Enough already, right. Hey, when it happens, you could make the absorber project a fun DIY family affair with the kids & grandkids. It'll be done in half a weekend.

Hey, if truth be told, I didn't fully commit to complete Room Treatment until I was in my late-40's. Wasted 30 years of hoping to capture how I sounded! Sheesh! Then, I lived in this great sounding 30'x40' room/hall w/ 20' high ceilings out in the rainforest woods - perfect for home recording. So I finally went all in w/ treatment.

Before, I couldn't figure out why I could not make consistent, clear & open sounding recordings using the amazing mic's I had, playing well-rehearsed music on some great self-made instruments. It baffled me - all that work for minor-league results. Treatment made ALL the difference for me.

Question: I have to turn up the volume so high just to hear that really nice version of Cairn Water you shared. Why is that? Can you increase the levels more when mastering? Use the meters visually, not headphones, Sure would love to hear that piece without the noise of having to turn it up so high. Man, you play it so well, Barry. I love Celtic music. Spent half a summer playing in pubs all over Ireland 45 years ago. The music brings back those memories so clearly.

Have a great, safe New Jersey weekend, Barry. Hey, play some beautiful tunes for me, will ya? Mister Gigger here used to love hot licks. But now I seek out acoustic guitar music almost solely for its beauty & subtlety. And your music has both in spades, Barry.

Here's one of my favorites. Try it in this tuning, Barry: E2 B2 E3 F#3 B3 E4 - Capo 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAEzzoNeYMU

That's the sound & style (Alex's) I was going after 40 years ago, the way he layers his notes & sections. Inspiring! His music started me down my high-end mic addition path (now long cured-Ha!) Wow, has it really been that long?

alohachris

PS: Ya know if we lived closer, I'd just give you the remaining 8 absorbers I have laying around unused. I gave away 14 last year. But 2,600 miles is 2,600 miles. It's a long way to the Kittatinny Mountains from the Koolau. -alohachris-

[TBman]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Barry,

I'll stop bugging' you Barry. Enough already, right. Hey, when it happens, you could make the absorber project a fun DIY family affair with the kids & grandkids. It'll be done in half a weekend.

Hey, if truth be told, I didn't fully commit to complete Room Treatment until I was in my late-40's. Wasted 30 years of hoping to capture how I sounded! Sheesh! Then, I lived in this great sounding 30'x40' room/hall w/ 20' high ceilings out in the rainforest woods - perfect for home recording. So I finally went all in w/ treatment.

Before, I couldn't figure out why I could not make consistent, clear & open sounding recordings using the amazing mic's I had, playing well-rehearsed music on some great self-made instruments. It baffled me - all that work for minor-league results. Treatment made ALL the difference for me.

Question: I have to turn up the volume so high just to hear that really nice version of Cairn Water you shared. Why is that? Can you increase the levels more when mastering? Sure would love to hear that piece without the noise of having to turn it up so high. Man, you play it so well, Barry. I love Celtic music. Spent half a summer playing in pubs all over Ireland 45 years ago. The music brings back those memories so clearly.

Have a great, safe New Jersey weekend, Barry. Hey, play some beautiful tunes for me, will ya? Mister Gigger here used to love hot licks. But now I seek out acoustic guitar music almost solely for its beauty & subtlety. And your music has both in spades, Barry.

Here's one of my favorites:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAEzzoNeYMU

That's the sound & style (Alex's) I was going after 40 years ago, the way he layers his notes & sections. Wow, has it been that long?

alohachris

PS: Ya know if we lived closer, I'd just give you the remaining 8 absorbers I have laying around unused. I gave away 14 last year. But 2,600 miles is 2,600 miles. It's a long way to the Kittatinny Mountains from the Koolau -alohachris-

Chris, I'll keep an eye on my mastering output levels in the future. Before I publish something I'll check how it sounds on a PC and on a smart phone (with buds). I'm just reviewing things on a PC with headphones now. I'll have to learn how to evaluate the levels within my DAW too, probably make more sense than uploading and testing that way.

Swordfish - nice tune! I live under a rock. I've never heard Alex before, thanks!

Have a great weekend!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TBman

Chris, I'll keep an eye on my mastering output levels in the future. Before I publish something I'll check how it sounds on a PC and on a smart phone (with buds). I'm just reviewing things on a PC with headphones now. I'll have to learn how to evaluate the levels within my DAW too, probably make more sense than uploading and testing that way.

Swordfish - nice tune! I live under a rock. I've never heard Alex before, thanks!

Have a great weekend!

Meters, Barry! You're using Logic, right? bring up the Loudness Meter. You're shooting for around -15LUFSs.

Oh man, definitely listen to some Alex de Grassi!. He all but created the modern "new age" fingerstyle genre, along with Michael Hedges and Will Ackerman. His newest CD, "The Bridge", is really nice. Alex is a master at creating a multi-layered sound out of one guitar.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Meters, Barry! You're using Logic, right? bring up the Loudness Meter. You're shooting for around -15LUFSs.

Oh man, definitely listen to some Alex de Grassi!. He all but created the modern "new age" fingerstyle genre, along with Michael Hedges and Will Ackerman. His newest CD, "The Bridge", is really nice. Alex is a master at creating a multi-layered sound out of one guitar.

Thanks Doug. I'm using Reaper, but it must have something like that. Otherwise I'll find a free plug-in,

I'm going to experiment and try upping my input gain too.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by TBman

Thanks Doug. I'm using Reaper, but it must have something like that. Otherwise I'll find a free plug-in,

I'm going to experiment and try upping my input gain too.

Go by the meters, not your ears. Get the input meters around -6 peaks to leave some headroom, although you can realistically work a bit lower than that even. It's right there on each track in Reaper.

When finalizing the recording, you can do it without any plugins at all if you want. Set the main output slider to 0, and then adjust your track volumes until the main output meter hits -4 to -6 and you should be find. But Ozone
can help, and if I'm looking for LUFS, I use the YouLean plugin, which is free, so you might try that.

[alohachris]

Aloha Barry,

Alex DeGrassi is probably my all time favorite fingerstyle player. And as he & I talked about me making a Koa guitar for him over the years, & got to meet a few times, I discovered him to be a great guy: very articulate, generous, educated & very knowledgable about all kinds of music, guitars & theory. He demystifyed uncommon open tunings for me - much appreciated - & IMO is as great an original guitar player & guy that there is.

But the way he layers his music - without changing tempo? That's incredible! It can help any finger stylist improve his/her expression. And his musical melodies are memorable.

Here are a few hard-to-source, classic Alex pieces from his first two Windham Hill albums for you, Barry. The mic's used on most of these early recorded pieces were the AKG EB 352 w/ CK1 cardioid caps.:

Turning, Turning Back -Live-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqqm...eature=related
Swordfish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAEzzoNeYMU
Luther's Lullaby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rcrsicbmts
Blood & Jasmine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdRPJaf6b5o
Window
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0DMX26-KOg
Children's Dance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRx7p4fD4MM
Waltz & March of the Rhinoceri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_C1L5yd4pw
Alpine Medley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVXPQsWYoCs
Autumn Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoFkCAxeXhQ
Turning Back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC41Mkqkwk0
Causeway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcA4rmKTBQw
Slow Circle 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFa61cCxGOA
Slow Circle Live & Slower
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVa76gSp63o
Slow Circle Fast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6gD0sqVyBw
Sleeping Lady
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYbZaHBL2BA
The Deep - fr New Album The Bridge!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKQ-FHq8tFA

Alex has been great forever. He is one guitarist who has never stopped growing in skill or trying new approaches to music. But also incredible & "instrumental" in the sound of Alex's early recordings were early Windham Hill engineers Cookie Marenco, Tom Easton & Stephen Miller. They pioneered new, close-miking techniques for the acoustic guitar & achieved a truly fresh, innovative & original acoustic sound in the late 70's/early 80's. They also used the best vinyl.

Enjoy!
alohachris

PS: Hey Doug, have you recorded any of Alex's music?