Altered tunings and brain strain

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

Thanks for some interesting replies to think about.
I would like to quote a portion of JohnPR's post but I can't see how to do multiple quotes in one reply? So with his post in mind...
I might be wrong here but I'm sure I read somewhere that with Joni Mitchell she uses many tunings but a few chord shapes which she can hold easily and employs the same shapes accross different tunings.

If you want to learn more about Joni's system, this is the site you need:
https://jonimitchell.com/music/viewa...ning%20Pattern
This page explains the tuning groups: https://jonimitchell.com/music/tuningpatterns.cfm

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

Though I never did learn that way guitar teachers seem to encourage students to become familiar with the fretboard in standard tuning by using the CAGED system so I wonder if anyonone uses something similiar in altered tunings, but then I think that well...as Martin Carthy seemed to imply in the video chords just aren't that important to those who use such tunings and melody is more significant.

Yes, which may be because he's mostly playing folk music where the melody and lyric are more important than the chords, and he might simply be setting up drone patterns, or some kind of counterpoint between melody and bass, rather than any chords as such.

[Andyrondack]

Thanks again some usefull tips, I guess I need to spend more time improving my familiarity with scales and chord shapes in an altered tuning before jumping straight in and playing tunes with some harmony, I think I forgot that was how I originally began to learn standard.

One more thing I do wonder about though is do most of those who use multiple tunings tend to use one tuning per key? Does anyone prefer DADGAD for example to play in C ?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

Thanks again some usefull tips, I guess I need to spend more time improving my familiarity with scales and chord shapes in an altered tuning before jumping straight in and playing tunes with some harmony, I think I forgot that was how I originally began to learn standard.

One more thing I do wonder about though is do most of those who use multiple tunings tend to use one tuning per key? Does anyone prefer DADGAD for example to play in C ?

Certain tunings tend to do best in 1 or 2 keys, or at least be more obvious. But you have the same 12 notes in any tuning, so there's no reason you can't play in any key in any tuning. The key of C in DADGAD is terrific, here's an example from me:



I just taught a workshop on DADGAD in the key of C, using this tune as an example. Talk to Pierre Bensusan about keys in DADGAD and he'll quickly run you thru every imaginable key.

[ljguitar]

Hi all

Notes are the equivalent in music to letters in spoken/written language. Chords are like words.

As a kid, I had been talking for years before I learned to spell anything. And the first words I learned to spell (when 6 years old) were See Spot…but I certainly had an elaborate vocabulary by then.

Later it became See Spot run. And it built from there, and I'm not sure when the rote memorization and spelling caught up with my vocabulary. Years of English class and spelling memorizations down the line.

But no matter how complicated of words I speak, I'm not thinking about how the words are spelled unless I need to type a post with the word in it (or someone asked "How do you spell that?").

The point is, I can spell it because I learned my letters and how to spell words with them. But I didn't need the letters to speak and understand language. If you ask me how to spell words, often I've never seen them written, nor spelled them before. But I can figure out how to spell them because I understand grammar and can sound things out.

LIKEWISE…
I DO NOT think about the notes I'm playing when I play music. I learned to play music long before I was spelling music. I was singing songs and as a kid. We listened to the radio, and saw things on TV which we sang about.

And just as I don't think letters when saying words, I don't think note-names when playing music…unless you stop me and ask what the notes are. If you stop me and ask the notes, I can very quickly tell you the notes - and often I've never seen them written, nor did I learn them from a score. I know them because I learned how music is constructed.

It's actually easier to figure out note-names when listening than sounding out word spellings. There are only 11 semi-tones in the 'alphabet' and we can figure them out once we know the root (which falls into place in my brain quickly as I listen…whether I'm conscious about it or not).

Enough prattling. Just wanted to elaborate on some of the thoughts in the thread. When playing in alternate tunings, the notes didn't change, they just moved (often next door or a couple doors down) and are easy to track down.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Certain tunings tend to do best in 1 or 2 keys, or at least be more obvious. But you have the same 12 notes in any tuning, so there's no reason you can't play in any key in any tuning. The key of C in DADGAD is terrific, here's an example from me:



I just taught a workshop on DADGAD in the key of C, using this tune as an example. Talk to Pierre Bensusan about keys in DADGAD and he'll quickly run you thru every imaginable key.

Well what a lovely example of what can be done, thanks for sharing that.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Certain tunings tend to do best in 1 or 2 keys, or at least be more obvious. But you have the same 12 notes in any tuning, so there's no reason you can't play in any key in any tuning. The key of C in DADGAD is terrific, here's an example from me:

Excellent!
One of my tunes - although it starts in a mix of D major and D minor - has a bridge in F major, and DADGAD works nicely in that key too.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

Hello all,
I love the sounds produced by guitarists such as Martin Carthy and the late John Renbourn who use different tunings to colour a piece or just make it easier to play.
But how do those who use multiple tunings cope when the once familiar notes and relationships of standard tuning are re-arranged on the fret board? does it take a particular mental facility that only a few guitarists possess or can anyone learn to play in several tunings with the right approach?

Andy,
I've been playing, almost exclusively, in open tunings since 1972 or so.

I know close to nothing about the notes on the fretboard in standard or open tunings, except how to get certain sounds with certain fingerings/shapes, etc.

It's really a matter of your letting go of the prior concepts you learned, and just take every new tuning for what it is.

Learn some pieces in those tunings, and THEN you can analyze the similarities & patterns as they relate to standard tuning.

There's no doubt that standard tuning really offers the widest palette in terms of types & styles of music possible.

However there are pieces written in open tuning that can absolutely grab you by the throat in terms of their allure, and they can NOT be played in standard tuning with nearly the depth of musicality.

Accept them as separate, but equal.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Andy,
I've been playing, almost exclusively, in open tunings since 1972 or so.

I know close to nothing about the notes on the fretboard in standard or open tunings, except how to get certain sounds with certain fingerings/shapes, etc.

It's really a matter of your letting go of the prior concepts you learned, and just take every new tuning for what it is.

Learn some pieces in those tunings, and THEN you can analyze the similarities & patterns as they relate to standard tuning.

There's no doubt that standard tuning really offers the widest palette in terms of types & styles of music possible.

However there are pieces written in open tuning that can absolutely grab you by the throat in terms of their allure, and they can NOT be played in standard tuning with nearly the depth of musicality.

Accept them as separate, but equal.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

Agree with this 100%.

[islandguitar]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Andy,
I've been playing, almost exclusively, in open tunings since 1972 or so.

I know close to nothing about the notes on the fretboard in standard or open tunings, except how to get certain sounds with certain fingerings/shapes, etc.

It's really a matter of your letting go of the prior concepts you learned, and just take every new tuning for what it is.

Learn some pieces in those tunings, and THEN you can analyze the similarities & patterns as they relate to standard tuning.

There's no doubt that standard tuning really offers the widest palette in terms of types & styles of music possible.

However there are pieces written in open tuning that can absolutely grab you by the throat in terms of their allure, and they can NOT be played in standard tuning with nearly the depth of musicality.

Accept them as separate, but equal.

Regards,
Howard Emerson

Beautifully written, Howard! And, it also totally captures "me" and what's occurred with my journey over decades. Thanks for the thoughts on this!

[agfsteve]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi all

Notes are the equivalent in music to letters in spoken/written language. Chords are like words.

As a kid, I had been talking for years before I learned to spell anything. And the first words I learned to spell (when 6 years old) were See Spot…but I certainly had an elaborate vocabulary by then.

Later it became See Spot run. And it built from there, and I'm not sure when the rote memorization and spelling caught up with my vocabulary. Years of English class and spelling memorizations down the line.

But no matter how complicated of words I speak, I'm not thinking about how the words are spelled unless I need to type a post with the word in it (or someone asked "How do you spell that?").

The point is, I can spell it because I learned my letters and how to spell words with them. But I didn't need the letters to speak and understand language. If you ask me how to spell words, often I've never seen them written, nor spelled them before. But I can figure out how to spell them because I understand grammar and can sound things out.

LIKEWISE…
I DO NOT think about the notes I'm playing when I play music. I learned to play music long before I was spelling music. I was singing songs and as a kid. We listened to the radio, and saw things on TV which we sang about.

And just as I don't think letters when saying words, I don't think note-names when playing music…unless you stop me and ask what the notes are. If you stop me and ask the notes, I can very quickly tell you the notes - and often I've never seen them written, nor did I learn them from a score. I know them because I learned how music is constructed.

It's actually easier to figure out note-names when listening than sounding out word spellings. There are only 11 semi-tones in the 'alphabet' and we can figure them out once we know the root (which falls into place in my brain quickly as I listen…whether I'm conscious about it or not).

Enough prattling. Just wanted to elaborate on some of the thoughts in the thread. When playing in alternate tunings, the notes didn't change, they just moved (often next door or a couple doors down) and are easy to track down.

Very nicely put, and a good analogy. Just one minor point: I think there are actually 12 semi-tones in the musical alphabet.

[georgeliscio]

Originally Posted by agfsteve

Very nicely put, and a good analogy. Just one minor point: I think there are actually 12 semi-tones in the musical alphabet.

Completely agree, playing in a different tuning - it's like speaking another language. You got (almost) the same sounds, some words might be similar. And there you are, translating your thoughts in real time, putting your words in correct order to express yourself. The same way, in real time, you know, for example, that all your notes on the first 2 strings are shifted whole step down, so when playing a solo in a different tuning, you take this fact into account. For chords it's more like memorizing the shapes depending on the root notes, coz you won't be able to figure out the whole shape in real time quickly enough.