Matching BPM of a song with Drum Loops

silvercn · #1 09-11-2020, 09:02 PM

I have been home recording for a long time and still have some disability when it comes to matching the metronome / click track or drum loop to the song! I know someone here can help. Maybe I'm confusing BMP with tempo or its a drum pattern issue?. Take for example John Prine's Summer's End. Do a look up of the BMP and its 74. Now if I set the project at 74, and put the metronome to play during record, or instead just load in a 4/4 loop pattern created at or near 74,- these seem much to slow as I try to get the song going (finger picked primarily), and match what my ear is telling me listening to his video.

Or is the BMP correct, but I just don't have the correct step sequence going on - (not being a drummer, that's easy to get wrong). I suppose I could build a pattern to match or closely match what I am hearing in the song his recording, but then I like the convenience of downloaded loops!! What the heck is my problem?! I need some floaties!! (ps edit: If I begin the project with a loop insert and then fit my play to it, that works, but I'd like to get this down the first way I explained)

Thanks - Charles

jim1960 · #2 09-11-2020, 10:45 PM

Any chance your daw has a tap function to set the click tempo? By now, I'd think most of them do. If it does, you can just tap the beat as the original plays and the daw will set the tempo number for you.

Bob Womack · #3 09-12-2020, 05:10 AM

I build the song backwards because when it comes time to play in the guitar parts it only way that seems natural. I build an entire drum track, fills, transitions, and all. I don't use loops because they aren't as natural as a performance. I tap in the performance on the elbow pad of the console with a mic over my hands and replace the sounds with a replacement plug-in. Then I play in the bass part before I play the guitars. The drums are the heartbeat of the song! If they don't sound the right speed, you won't play right. I, for one, need good drums to play my best.

It is your performance. Set the tempo at the speed that is comfortable to you.

Bob

KevWind · #4 09-12-2020, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvercn

I have been home recording for a long time and still have some disability when it comes to matching the metronome / click track or drum loop to the song! I know someone here can help. Maybe I'm confusing BMP with tempo or its a drum pattern issue?. Take for example John Prine's Summer's End. Do a look up of the BMP and its 74. Now if I set the project at 74, and put the metronome to play during record, or instead just load in a 4/4 loop pattern created at or near 74,- these seem much to slow as I try to get the song going (finger picked primarily), and match what my ear is telling me listening to his video.

Or is the BMP correct, but I just don't have the correct step sequence going on - (not being a drummer, that's easy to get wrong). I suppose I could build a pattern to match or closely match what I am hearing in the song his recording, but then I like the convenience of downloaded loops!! What the heck is my problem?! I need some floaties!! (ps edit: If I begin the project with a loop insert and then fit my play to it, that works, but I'd like to get this down the first way I explained)

Thanks - Charles

If your talking about this video below
74 actually seems pretty close (just using an online "tap the beat" finder while the video is plying )
However sounds like the snare starts out only hitting on the 2 beat of each measure (sounding like it is @37) then later it changes so this might be the problem if trying to use using a drum loop pattern that is hitting on different beats .

Also when you say "match what my ear is telling me listening to his video" are you saying you are listening to the video and your recording at the same time ? Or just recalling the video from memory ? .

Also consider that if Prine is using a human drummer that the BPM's can and likely does vary somewhat either way, or both ways, throughout the song . BUT if your drum loop has been "quantized to the grid" as well as the metronome are going to be spot on the grid/beat .

Lastly if your going to use a drum loop why also use a click/metronome ? I would think it would be simpler and less confusing to use either one, or the other, not both just some thoughts

silvercn · #5 09-12-2020, 09:41 AM

KeyWind - I like your feedback and analysis of whats going on with me. Yes that is the video. I meant either or with the click track or loop - not both at the same time!. After messing with this more after my post, I now see how his video is "on average" around 74, but yes it does vary and I feel pretty certain it must be a live drummer. Agreed that a loop is too constant and doesn't match well enough my style of playing, which does tend to vary tempos up or down for expression- (I tend to slow songs down too much at times, relative to the original recordings). So all said, it will probably work better to record my guitar and vocal how I play it, as closely as I can to that 74, and build a beat to it, or have no drum beat at all. I do like to embellish with strings, piano or organ,etc with a synth - but that's a cinch!! Thanks

Chipotle · #6 09-12-2020, 10:39 AM

I've seen a number of articles that demonstrate how the tempo of many old classic songs fluctuates throughout, sometimes wildly! It's part of the human feel and can add life and emphasis to the music. (Some folks say that click tracks and quantization have ruined music, but that's a whole conversation in itself.)

That means that, as you found, trying to get a computerized click or drum loop to exactly match a live performance just won't happen (unless that performance itself was done to the same tempo click).

Using a click/loop to record to or not really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Having a set tempo and recording to a click can make editing easier later, it's perfectly possible to edit without it. If you have a full-featured DAW, you can even set tempo changes that the click will follow, so you can get the best of both worlds!

silvercn · #7 09-12-2020, 12:14 PM

I've recorded faster tempo songs before, starting with a drum loop sequence and stuck to that okay all the way through. But in this case, with these slower fingerpicked, organic songs, I agree with a lot of the discussions above. My DAW, Sonar Professional (Great DAW!)is capable of creating a click track that follows my play and tempo variations: recently watched a good video on how to. I guess then, that can be useful for creating a drum track that follows these variations, but otherwise what's really the point. I appreciate all the feedback!!

jim1960 · #8 09-12-2020, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chipotle

Having a set tempo and recording to a click can make editing easier later, it's perfectly possible to edit without it.

That's true but the latter takes longer and, depending on the experience level of the person making the edits, it could take a LOT longer. It also makes it more difficult to overdub later since any additional tracks will have to follow the tempo fluctuations while being played or edited to align with those fluctuations.

silvercn · #9 09-12-2020, 03:25 PM

Gee so many ways to just make this way more difficult than it has to be. Kind of laughable... At myself anyway. Thanks. I'll post my project of Summer’s End in Show n Tell when done. Thamks

Chipotle · #10 09-12-2020, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvercn

Gee so many ways to just make this way more difficult than it has to be. Kind of laughable... At myself anyway. Thanks. I'll post my project of Summer’s End in Show n Tell when done. Thamks

I just re-read your original post and maybe we are misunderstanding your question?

You said "I do a look up of the BPM and it's 74" but then you think it's too slow. Where is that 74BPM number coming from?

It could just be that wherever you are looking up BPMs is based on another version, or simply incorrect. In that case, you'd want to measure it yourself off the recording you are trying to duplicate. I think the easiest way to do that is to get a metronome app for your phone that has tap temp, or even just go to this web site and tap along!

silvercn · #11 09-13-2020, 06:36 AM

Chipolte - It is so ironic that you mention that Justin website -I have used him several times for his take on playing various songs - I think he has a good way of teaching. I have seen his BPM app a long time ago, and since my first post here I thought about grabbing that again. I also learned that my DAW's change tempo function does allow for a keyboard short cut to be used to tap out the tempo. Just about any website you search on the song version I refer to,the BMP comes up with 74. I tried the tap tempo function and it does seem to hover around 74. As others have posted its variable, and where the snare hits are tends to make it seem slower. I am happy for now after resolving a few things in my head and methods from all the helpful posts.

thanks-