ES2 vs ES1-3

j3ffr0 · #1 01-12-2014, 07:35 PM

Anyone compared the new Expression System 2 to the 2010-2013 gen 3 Expression System? I am a big fan of the gen 3, but am interested in hearing the new.

briggleman · #2 01-12-2014, 07:47 PM

Sort of confused about your question....

There are, at this time about 4 iterations, or evolutions in the ES system

Generations 1 through 3 were basically the same design, just enhancements via voltage, number of sensors, and pre-amp design.

The newest is a whole new animal using adjustable bridge sensors. There have already been a few threads on this. Do a search and you will see others opinions on this.

Brad

Petty1818 · #3 01-12-2014, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briggleman

Sort of confused about your question....

There are, at this time about 4 iterations, or evolutions in the ES system

Generations 1 through 3 were basically the same design, just enhancements via voltage, number of sensors, and pre-amp design.

The newest is a whole new animal using adjustable bridge sensors. There have already been a few threads on this. Do a search and you will see others opinions on this.

Brad

You are correct, there are 4. However, the newest ES system is called the ES2. The most updated magnetic based system is the ES3.

I have compared them and they are completely different. If you like the ES3 then you will find the ES2 to be very different. I hate the ES3, it's just too magnetic and the further you go up the neck, the more the magnetic/mid range character comes through. It is however very feedback resistant.

The ES2 on the other hand is very mic like, even though it is piezo based. The top of the guitar is very sensitive and I found that I was feeding back even at moderate practice volumes. I prefer it to the ES3 but only if I was a solo performer. I just couldn't tame the bass and treble on it. It's better than the ES3 but not my thing.

Steely Glen · #4 01-13-2014, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petty1818

You are correct, there are 4. However, the newest ES system is called the ES2. The most updated magnetic based system is the ES3.

I have compared them and they are completely different. If you like the ES3 then you will find the ES2 to be very different. I hate the ES3, it's just too magnetic and the further you go up the neck, the more the magnetic/mid range character comes through. It is however very feedback resistant.

The ES2 on the other hand is very mic like, even though it is piezo based. The top of the guitar is very sensitive and I found that I was feeding back even at moderate practice volumes. I prefer it to the ES3 but only if I was a solo performer. I just couldn't tame the bass and treble on it. It's better than the ES3 but not my thing.

Just a point of clarification: Are you sure you have your terminology correct, here? The way I've seen it referrred to is:

"ES" for the Expression System Generations 1,2,& 3 (2003 - Present)
"ES2" for the new Expression System (2013 - Present)

The way you're describing the systems, the new ES2 and the 2nd Generation ES (the one with 2 body sensors, 2007-2010) would be called the exact same thing: ES2.

With that said, I do think that any move to eliminate the magentic textures of the ES will be a good thing. I run all my Taylors through a K4, which helps, but climbing the neck, the magentic pickup is unmistakable. I wish I could dial it back and add more SBT tone from the body sensor. Having not heard the ES2 demo'd extensively, it's a problem I can live with in the ES, the 3rd generation of which is the best, IMO.

Petty1818 · #5 01-13-2014, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Glen

Just a point of clarification: Are you sure you have your terminology correct, here? The way I've seen it referrred to is:

"ES" for the Expression System Generations 1,2,& 3 (2003 - Present)
"ES2" for the new Expression System (2013 - Present)

The way you're describing the systems, the new ES2 and the 2nd Generation ES (the one with 2 body sensors, 2007-2010) would be called the exact same thing: ES2.

With that said, I do think that any move to eliminate the magentic textures of the ES will be a good thing. I run all my Taylors through a K4, which helps, but climbing the neck, the magentic pickup is unmistakable. I wish I could dial it back and add more SBT tone from the body sensor. Having not heard the ES2 demo'd extensively, it's a problem I can live with in the ES, the 3rd generation of which is the best, IMO.

The ES2 is the name of the new piezo based system that was just released. Admittedly I don't know if the other system is called the ES3. However, we are on the third generation of it so it makes sense to clarify it that way. I was just clearing up the fact that the new system would not be considered the ES4 because it's not magnetic based. At the end of the day though I don't think it matters all that much as long as you understand the difference.

Personally, I have decided to rule Taylor electronics out in the future. I had high hopes for the ES2, even though I had such bad experiences with the magnetic based ES system. It just didn't produce like I thought it would.

dgaemc2 · #6 01-14-2014, 11:01 PM

Petty1818,

Thanks for you post. I respect your opinions, but disagree.
Firstly, I currently own 3 nice very nice Taylor's equipped with the ES "Version 1", Generation 3 PU system. I find all of these very easy to dial in very usable live amplified sounds when set to taste. That is just my opinion and to each their own. This topic has been beat to death...pros and cons.

I am the proud owner of a 2013 516e FLTD and 2014 816ce FE.
With regards to the latest ES "Version 2" PU system, I do agree with you in that it is very different amplified sound than the "Version 1" system (any gen).

My take on the ES Version 2 system based on my ownership is as follows:
1. It truly sounds much more natural to the acoustic sound only amplified.
2. Both of my new guitars have very good balance between all 6 strings when amplified. However, in the event that there are imbalances between strings....easy adjustment is offered with set screws for 3 pairs of strings (High E/B, Mid G/D and Low A/E). Note: I did slightly tighten the High E/B allen nut on my 516e LTD to bring up the volume of these strings from factory setting for optimum balance (It was very close from factory). It worked well! I didn't have to adjust my 2014 816ce settings at all from factory....perfect balance to me as is!
3. I do find that both of these guitars sound a bit bass heavy to me with bass and treble knobs set to detent and my acoustic amp(s) set to neutral positions for T, M, B. I believe this likely due to both of these guitars having a very nice (and clear) bass presence acoustically which I love. Anyway, this is certainly not a problem. Simply dial in the Bass / Treble knobs on the guitar and/or adjust amp tone knobs to taste. Personally, I find that both guitars benefit with my guitar bass knob rolled off to about 3 o'clock, treble knob set to center dentent amp amp tone settings with neutral bass, slight drop in mid and neutral treble. That said, by all means experiment! The ES knobs are very interactive and can really dialed in to achieve a tone that will be liked by most IMO!
4. I don't have any more concerns about the new Version 2 ES system regarding feedback issues than any other acoustic guitar PU system! Care in positioning of amp with regard to guitar, and settings of the phase switch/amp settings/pa settings is key no matter what system is used IMO.
Personally, I have been able to achieve very loud amplified sounds with no feedback issues using the new Version 2 ES system.
5. The new ES system requires the use of a standard "unbalanced" instrument cable and offers great clean volume and sound using the standard cable. Fortunately, this long debate from Version 1 system is no longer valid with V2! Hooray!!
6. Based on my experience, I much prefer the Version 2 ES system for a more natural acoustic amplification of my new Taylor guitars equipped as such. That said, I am not planning to replace my existing Taylors that are equipped with Version 1, 3rd generation....as I find it to be good as well.
7. I encourage all to give the new ES system a go for yourself!

I hope that some find my writeup useful.

dgaemc2 · #7 01-14-2014, 11:07 PM

Oops, I noticed a significant typo on Item 3 of my post.

I meant to say that I find great sounds with my bass knob on my ES rolled off to 9 o'clock not 3 o'clock!

Sorry about that...

SpruceTop · #8 01-16-2014, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j3ffr0

Anyone compared the new Expression System 2 to the 2010-2013 gen 3 Expression System? I am a big fan of the gen 3, but am interested in hearing the new.

Here is a link to the thread I posted about a month ago. The sound-files are made with flat eq into a JamMan:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=320561

I may make new ES-comparison files when I record my new Taylor 528 First Edition with installed L.R. Baggs Lyric Acoustic Guitar Mic.

Regards,

SpruceTop

Rollaway · #9 01-16-2014, 08:35 AM

I posted pics of my new 710ce with the ES 2 in another thread. Indeed the new Expression System addressed the issues I (and others) had with the unnatural, magnetic sound of the E and B strings up the neck. The new system sounds much more like the guitar is mic'd.

That said, I am struggling with the pick attack being so accentuated with this system that it's unpleasant at times. I changed the nut and saddle to bone, tried different strings, and even swept out some of it with ParaEQ. That character is there unplugged. But amplified, it takes on an unpleasantness and seems to be disproportionate to the sound I DO want amplified.

Giving it a few more gigs to tweak but seriously thinking about slapping a Fishman Matrix in it. Love the guitar...my relationship with the new ES is "complicated."

Petty1818 · #10 01-16-2014, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollaway

I posted pics of my new 710ce with the ES 2 in another thread. Indeed the new Expression System addressed the issues I (and others) had with the unnatural, magnetic sound of the E and B strings up the neck. The new system sounds much more like the guitar is mic'd.

That said, I am struggling with the pick attack being so accentuated with this system that it's unpleasant at times. I changed the nut and saddle to bone, tried different strings, and even swept out some of it with ParaEQ. That character is there unplugged. But amplified, it takes on an unpleasantness and seems to be disproportionate to the sound I DO want amplified.

Giving it a few more gigs to tweak but seriously thinking about slapping a Fishman Matrix in it. Love the guitar...my relationship with the new ES is "complicated."

That was my main issue. I found that with finger picking the plugged in sound was very mic like but when I tried strumming it was very harsh. It is indeed better than the magnetic ES system but I feel as though it will only work for certain players.

dgaemc2 · #11 01-16-2014, 10:57 PM

Good comments guys, and I do agree the ES version 1 (any gen), and ES version 2 certainly isn't going to appeal to everybody. No doubt.

That said, I would also like to add that no pickup system will appeal to everybody. In fact, that is why there is always so much good chatter regarding "the best acoustic pickup system" on this great forum.

Very subjective indeed.

For those that do audition the new Taylor ES2 (version 2).....definitely experiment by drastically changing the bass and treble knob settings offered with the ES. There is no law against this and I personally find that a significant reduction on the bass tone in particular is very beneficial with both my 516e FLTD and 816ce FE guitars.

Personally, I have found it very easy to dial in a great amplified sound using the new ES2 system for whatever style I choose to play. I do adjust the knobs to suit a particular style of play (fingerstyle, strummed chords, etc.).

SpruceTop,
Thanks for your comparison sound clips.
I love my 516e FLTD and 816ce FE!! It seems we have similar tastes.

j3ffr0 · #12 01-17-2014, 07:56 AM

I'm definitely going to need to make a trip to the store soon and do some ABs. Last time the > 2010 Expression System was a lot better to my ears than all the Auras and others.

SpruceTop · #13 01-17-2014, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgaemc2

Good comments guys, and I do agree the ES version 1 (any gen), and ES version 2 certainly isn't going to appeal to everybody. No doubt.

That said, I would also like to add that no pickup system will appeal to everybody. In fact, that is why there is always so much good chatter regarding "the best acoustic pickup system" on this great forum.

Very subjective indeed.

For those that do audition the new Taylor ES2 (version 2).....definitely experiment by drastically changing the bass and treble knob settings offered with the ES. There is no law against this and I personally find that a significant reduction on the bass tone in particular is very beneficial with both my 516e FLTD and 816ce FE guitars.

Personally, I have found it very easy to dial in a great amplified sound using the new ES2 system for whatever style I choose to play. I do adjust the knobs to suit a particular style of play (fingerstyle, strummed chords, etc.).

SpruceTop,
Thanks for your comparison sound clips.
I love my 516e FLTD and 816ce FE!! It seems we have similar tastes.

You're Welcome!

Regards,

SpruceTop

SpruceTop · #14 01-17-2014, 09:05 PM

Hi Folks,

I just played around some more with my new Taylor 528 First Edition with its L.R. Baggs Lyric feeding through my just-received L.R. Baggs Venue DI/Preamp. With Venue EQ adjusted to sound more acoustic-guitar-like than my previous settings from last weekend, my result is a good acoustic-guitar-like, single-source amplified tone. Subsequently, I plugged-in my new Taylor 516e FLTD with the new Expression System 2. With all EQ on guitar and amp set flat, I achieved an immediately likeable amplified tone! I know personal preferences are everything but I'd say the new Taylor Expression System 2 easily rivals and likely surpasses any single-source system I've ever heard, and it's easier to dial-in than anything else.

Regards,

SpruceTop

Petty1818 · #15 01-18-2014, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Hi Folks,

I just played around some more with my new Taylor 528 First Edition with its L.R. Baggs Lyric feeding through my just-received L.R. Baggs Venue DI/Preamp. With Venue EQ adjusted to sound more acoustic-guitar-like than my previous settings from last weekend, my result is a good acoustic-guitar-like, single-source amplified tone. Subsequently, I plugged-in my new Taylor 516e FLTD with the new Expression System 2. With all EQ on guitar and amp set flat, I achieved an immediately likeable amplified tone! I know personal preferences are everything but I'd say the new Taylor Expression System 2 easily rivals and likely surpasses any single-source system I've ever heard, and it's easier to dial-in than anything else.

Regards,

SpruceTop

It's always great to hear when someone finds a pickup that really works for them. I am not there yet but I think what makes it hard for me is that I need versatility because I go from aggressive strumming to quieter finger picking. Some pickups sound great strummed and others don't.. same goes for finger picking.

One thing I wanted to ask though, what kind of venues and music do you play? I think that's the thing that we fail to discuss on here. A lot of people will recommend the pure mini or Lyric for example but fail to mention that they use it in an acoustic duo in ideal set ups for that particular pickup.

I still wish that I could sit down one day and just try a variety of pickups. It would make decisions so much easier.