Eastman AR610 - Next step?

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by RJVB

AFAIK that's a "solid-formed" top (= flat-top pressed into an arch) with a flat mahogany back. It was one of Gibson's budget instruments. Reverb lists several of them from 2 production eras. This one in Latvia is still for sale, for significantly more than what I seem to remember too!

Yep, almost anything old and American goes for a higher price in Europe (and UK too) than in the US. Those quality but lower tier vintage American archtops aren't in plentiful supply here.

[67goat]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Interesting because the general consensus seems to be that the Eastman AR6/8/9xx archtops have all taken a good page out of Benedetto's book (and that this is clear from their sound signature).

They certainly did for the Frank Vignola signature models.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by RJVB

BTW, here are a couple of recordings of a vintage L-48 by I forget what's-his-pseudo-on-here...

AFAIK that's a "solid-formed" top (= flat-top pressed into an arch) with a flat mahogany back. It was one of Gibson's budget instruments...

The L-48 was always (with the possible exception of a couple highly apocryphal examples from the very earliest days of production and/or prototypes - heard about them, never saw one myself and don't know anyone who has) an all-laminated instrument, generally consisting of mahogany for the top and maple for the back - a couple of my students had them back in the early-70's...

Originally Posted by PineMarten

Yep, almost anything old and American goes for a higher price in Europe (and UK too) than in the US....

Hmm, maybe I should become an expat and start an escort service to finance my guitar habit - I certainly meet the qualifications...

[PineMarten]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

The L-48 was always (with the possible exception of a couple highly apocryphal examples from the very earliest days of production and/or prototypes - heard about them, never saw one myself and don't know anyone who has) an all-laminated instrument, generally consisting of mahogany for the top and maple for the back - a couple of my students had them back in the early-70's...

Interesting that they typically sell for more than the Gibson-made pressed solid spruce/mahogany Kalamazoos and Cromwells, in that case. I guess being a Gibson counts for a lot.

[Robin, Wales]

Wow! This is getting well above my pay grade! I'm just a campfire amateur player/singer. I don't need a vintage arch top, I'm just looking for something that would do the job I ask of my 5th Avenue slightly better. This video is me practicing tonight for a local open mic' next week. It gives a good indication of my playing/singing level and the sort of genera I play. When I get to try out an AR610 or other carved archtop this is the sort of thing I will want to play on it.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

This is getting well above my pay grade!

Apologies, I was just trying to point out that it's not impossible to find a vintage Gibson (with mahogany B&S) in the same price range as a used Eastman archtop... (I only linked to the one in Latvia because it has an extensive recording).

Somehow I missed that it had a mahogany top as well, a laminated one even. I wouldn't have guessed that from the 2 recordings above!

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Apologies, I was just trying to point out that it's not impossible to find a vintage Gibson (with mahogany B&S) in the same price range as a used Eastman archtop... (I only linked to the one in Latvia because it has an extensive recording).

Somehow I missed that it had a mahogany top as well, a laminated one even. I wouldn't have guessed that from the 2 recordings above!

No need to apologise it has been a great discussion and I have learnt a lot. I have been mulling over your point about 16" v 17". I never plug in. And I like to play/sing with just a single ldc stage mic' like in the video above from last Friday night. So there could be an advantage from the AR610 in terms of projection perhaps?

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

So there could be an advantage from the AR610 in terms of projection perhaps?

Projection usually refers to how well a guitar sends its sound in a single direction (so it can travel further). That's not necessarily an ideal property if you're playing and singing around a single microphone - which I assume goes into a sound system that's louder than the actual sound you're producing on stage.

Ideally you'd be able to do a comparison of course... But as a general rule of thumb, the 17 and larger models came about when the plectrum guitar was adopted into bigbands, where they needed to "cut through the mix" of that tufted tapestry of loud sounds (read: be audible as a sort of tunable percussion, my interpretation). And I think it's pretty obvious (but I could be wrong!) that making use of that bigger power also means you need to put in more power to drive that bigger top. EDIT: and that's even more of a point when you fingerpick (as I see you also do).

What you're showing above seems akin to traditional bluegrass to me, which I think was among the originally intended applications of the L5 and in which I cannot recall having seen guitars beyond the size of a typical dreadnought. Which isn't even 16" according to a quick search. Larger flattops exists (jumbos!) but they are used in different styles.

You might want to ask around on one or more other forums that attract more archtop players, never mind the fact most of them will be jazz guitarists.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Projection usually refers to how well a guitar sends its sound in a single direction (so it can travel further). That's not necessarily an ideal property if you're playing and singing around a single microphone - which I assume goes into a sound system that's louder than the actual sound you're producing on stage.

Ideally you'd be able to do a comparison of course... But as a general rule of thumb, the 17 and larger models came about when the plectrum guitar was adopted into bigbands, where they needed to "cut through the mix" of that tufted tapestry of loud sounds (read: be audible as a sort of tunable percussion, my interpretation). And I think it's pretty obvious (but I could be wrong!) that making use of that bigger power also means you need to put in more power to drive that bigger top. EDIT: and that's even more of a point when you fingerpick (as I see you also do).

What you're showing above seems akin to traditional bluegrass to me, which I think was among the originally intended applications of the L5 and in which I cannot recall having seen guitars beyond the size of a typical dreadnought. Which isn't even 16" according to a quick search. Larger flattops exists (jumbos!) but they are used in different styles.

You might want to ask around on one or more other forums that attract more archtop players, never mind the fact most of them will be jazz guitarists.

You raise some good questions. I'm use to standing and playing dobro in bluegrass bands (single stage mic') and instrument balance is done by players moving in and out of the mic' field. For solo or smaller group settings much of the balance between instruments and voice comes from the height you place the mic' at. With my voice not being powerful, I place the mic' up a little if I'm playing solo. But there are those times when I need to be at the back of the mic's field and still be heard - so forward projection is helpful, as is holding a unique place in the mix.

In the Chicken wire video above I just stepped up to the mic' to do the kick off. Even in a noisy bar room the guitar was loud enough to be heard cleanly through the p.a. and for the band to come in on the 4 chord. But something with a little more projection would be even better!

I run medium gauge strings on all my guitars and heavy gauge on my dobro. When I finger pick I use a thumb pick and metal fingerpicks (playing Travis style). I have no problem fingerpicking and singing with my 000 with medium gauge strings at concerts locally to audiences of 70+ in a hotel lounge without any p.a. at all. I don't think that energy in = energy out is going to be too much of an issue.

The issues I expect will be physicality (is a 17" comfortable for me to play) and overtones (I want something a little more complex in timbre but not D-18 complex with its overtones firing off in all directions!!!).

I do think that an AR805 would be too much....but the AR610 with its mahogany b/s may work. The purely acoustic 605 16" doesn't seem to be in production any more - and there is almost zero chance of me finding one in the UK.

Anyway, I need to find the money first!!!!

[RJVB]

Even with medium or heavy strings a heavier top will still need more input to be put into comparable motion but you're right, maybe this difference won't be a problem.

Still, even the 16" AR should be considerably louder than your Kingpin, which AFAIK isn't very loud even for an all-laminate instrument.

I suggest you install an application like Decibel X on your phone and start doing some comparisons of how loud you really are on your main guitars. You might even be able to calibrate the app w.r.t the sound pressure meter that ought to be in your open mic venue. That way you can get some meaningful, real-world measurements that will make this kind of discussion a lot easier to hold

[RJVB]

I'm guessing you saw this video? (I really like Andreas Schultz's demos!)

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I'm guessing you saw this video? (I really like Andreas Schultz's demos!)

Very nice!

But I am far more likely to laying down simple boom/chuck rhythm with bass runs and fills and singing harmony vocals with an archtop (as I do with my 5th Avenue). This sort of thing:

[RJVB]

Not entirely what you're looking for but in your budget:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/sale...n-uk-sale.html

[Big Band Guitar]

I have a AR605 and a AR610. Far better fit and finish than my 1968 Gibson that does not get played anymore.

Fine instruments go for it.

I am very happy with both the AR605 is a Uptown with a serial number of 1 YES one.

I use the 605 when I'm playing with fiddlers and the 610 with a clip on condenser microphone with the big band.

The reason I have both is the 605 was stolen, recovered same day and held for evidence for 7 years. I replaced it with the 610.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

...This is getting well above my pay grade! I'm just a campfire amateur player/singer. I don't need a vintage arch top, I'm just looking for something that would do the job I ask of my 5th Avenue slightly better...

FTI if you're looking at - and can afford - an Eastman AR610, you can also afford one of these:

https://reverb.com/item/76204810-196...st-repair-free
https://reverb.com/item/74408337-epi...ard-shell-case

- this little sweetie from 1938 just happens to be in your neck of the woods:

https://reverb.com/item/73657984-epi...-1938-sunburst

- any of which will do the job of your (and my) Godin 5th Avenue more than slightly better...