I need help with my plugged in tone

[cb56]

Originally Posted by rmp

well you can do that (give up) , but if you ask for suggestions, why not at least try a few of the ones we've offered?

An EQ could probably solve a lot of what you don't like

for the money and easy plug an play solution, it's worth a try

Well I have tried several things suggested on this post and a post I did on facebook.

Bought an acoustic amp
Made sure I was using PB strings
Used a thicker 1mm pick
Bought a new battery for the pickup
The guitar pre amp has 3 band eq
Not going to buy another guitar with mahogany top
Did i miss any?

[rmp]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

Does it sound like this?

Leon Brown - ES2 review and comment

Well, I don't think I've heard anything sound THAT bad. But he has apparently done no tone sculpting and just plugged that into a sound card

so a lot of "Elements" there to discuss. Like what kind speakers are we hearing?

My 814CE DLX does NOT sound anything like that through any of my acoustic amps. if it did I would have sent it back and just forgotten about owning an 800 series.

I agree with him on one point it takes a bit more time and effort to get the ES2 tone to be something that isn't distracting. But really, that demo sounds when he plugged it in,, yea -- awful

[Nick84]

I’ve had guitars with different variations of the ES2/ESB pickup and I’ve struggled, like you to get a decent tone out of it. It’s why I no longer have any Taylor’s as trying to get one in the UK without that pickup already installed is very difficult.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by cb56

Well I have tried several things suggested on this post and a post I did on facebook.

Bought an acoustic amp
Made sure I was using PB strings
Used a thicker 1mm pick
Bought a new battery for the pickup
The guitar pre amp has 3 band eq
Not going to buy another guitar with mahogany top
Did i miss any?

Which Fishman are you using? Mini? Artist?

The Artist has a 3 band EQ, I think the mini only has Bass and Treble

you don't seem to have any pre-amp infront of the amp.

Why I mentioned the GE7 EQ, (or any EQ really) That will help do some tone shaping to get you closer to what you want to hear

I'm not sure the hog top has a lot of bearing.

At the end of the day I'm certainly not defending the ES2 It's my least favorite pickup of all my other guitars.

I think Taylor would do us and themselves a big plus by focusing on building a great guitar, but let someone else supply the electronics.

There's a few companies out there that are putting out some excellent sounding pickup systems.

these aint that..

[cb56]

I'm using the loudbox mini. It has 3 band eq as does the guitar.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by cb56

I'm using the loudbox mini. It has 3 band eq as does the guitar.

ah ok..

I usually cut the mids, almost completely, I run the high/treble around 10 o'clock, and the bass maybe at noon or slightly past on the loudbox.

Amp gain control is set about 9/10 o'clock and I usually have the pad button set to "low" which cuts the input level. (I think that is the "OUT" Position)

the Guitar is usually set as: bass is set somewhere around 1 o'clock, treble is set low, (8/9 o'clock?) volume is between noon and 3 o'clock

So as you can see I'm "Cutting" highs and midrange, and trying to warm things up by favoring slightly the low end settings. I'm NOT running the ES2 volume full up. usually no more than 3 o'clock

If I need more volume I use the master on the Loudbox

If you've not set it like that yet, Try it! See if it's closer

[cb56]

I have the newer ESB with the 3 band eq and volume all sliders.
So far the best sound I've gotten is with the treble and mid sliders all the way down and the bass at 12 on the guitar. Volume slider 3/4 up
On the loudbox mini bass at noon mids at 10 highs at 9. Gain 1 or 2
With my katana settings about the same using the acoustic setting.

[rmp]

oh!! that is quite a different setup to the ES2

I am not sure if you mentioned that before apologies if you did and I missed it

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by rmp

Well, I don't think I've heard anything sound THAT bad. But he has apparently done no tone sculpting and just plugged that into a sound card...

I think that's the most revealing approach. If I were to hear that coming at me from a PA without processing this would be my first impression.

* Overbearing midrange - nothing that can't be tamed
* No "body" to the sound - lord only knows what'll come up when I try to fill in the gaps with broad brush EQ. Usually, if it's there you can hear it to some extent. If you can't hear it then it'll come up forced and "lumpy".
* No detail in the transient, a bit like a mag. Might have something to offer that's currently masked by the mids but maybe not.

I didn't know much about the ES2 system and have sought enlightenment today. I'm quite disappointed that I haven't found any examples of amplified tone that would offer much to work with.

Preamps:

Alamo Guitars preamp comparison

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by cb56

Do I really need a pre amp between my guitar and acoustic amp?
My GS Mini has a pre amp and so does the loudbox mini.
I see plenty of folks plugging their acoustic guitar directly into acoustic amps with no problem at small gigs and open mic performances.
The low battery indicator isnt on but I'll go get a new battery and try that.

I have passive piezo SBT's (JJB) in an ukulele, 4 fiddles, 2 mandolins, a resonator mando, banjolin, a mandola, 2 octave mandolins, banjo, mandocello and 6 guitars. I also did a temporary install on an upright bass I rented.

I have a Carvin AG300 acoustic amp. It has a 3-way cabinet and high impedance (HI Z) selection on the input.

Although I've got a few good external preamps (RedEye is my favorite) I don't need it and don't use it when I plug into my Carvin. I use it when plugging into a PA.

I believe the less in the signal chain the better - less noise, less cables, less components and connections where things go wrong.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by cb56

Well I have tried several things suggested on this post and a post I did on facebook.

Bought an acoustic amp
Made sure I was using PB strings
Used a thicker 1mm pick
Bought a new battery for the pickup
The guitar pre amp has 3 band eq
Not going to buy another guitar with mahogany top
Did i miss any?

If you're looking for a particular sound it's best to research your purchasing choices BEFORE buying a guitar and peripherals.

[marciero]

IME, Eq is better at attenuating annoying frequencies than it is at creating something that is lacking.

I think that one fundamental issue with amplifying acoustics is that in most cases amplification is an add-on to an instrument that was designed around an acoustic sound. Years ago we had "electric acoustics" that were designed with amplification as a design consideration. For example, bodies would be smaller. I'll take the Yamah APX series as an example. There are some current examples like Godin nylon string guitars. Maybe the results were mixed for that first generation of guitars but it was a start. Since then there have been big advances on the processing side, but builders and companies do not seem to be designing guitars around an amplified sound, which would inevitably involve compromises on the acoustic side. Most of us are still trying to capture the acoustic sound of an instrument designed to be played acoustic. Based on what I hear from plugged in players, including famous players with expensive rigs, we are still falling short.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

I think that's the most revealing approach. If I were to hear that coming at me from a PA without processing this would be my first impression.

I guess so, but who knows what the speaker set up was that his mic that he did the demo on was.

Would that not make a difference here?

I think it would

not defending the ES2, I agree his overall opinion, not a great sounding pickup without some work.

[rokdog49]

The JJB is a great pickup, not as hot as the K & K though.
A preamp for live performances is a necessity IMHO.
The Red Eye that Mandobart suggests is what I use and it works very nicely.

[shufflebeat]

Originally Posted by rmp

I guess so, but who knows what the speaker set up was that his mic that he did the demo on was.

Would that not make a difference here?

I think it would

I see your point. I'm assuming that the recording is direct from the pickup with no amp/speaker/processing and I'm basing this assumption on what happens later in the video, when Leon is illustrating the feedback problems he plays a few notes and the mic/room sound is very obvious.

[Edit] I've since checked out some of Leon's other videos and he seems well aware of this issue and records all comparison signals dry.

Seems like a considered guy.