Scale to play over the diminished chord in "Tennessee Jed"

[Mixolydian Gray]

There are a few different kinds of diminished chords scales. Which do I play over the C diminished 7 below?

C
Cold iron shackles, ball and chain,
F G C
Listen to the whistle of the evening train.
C Co7 Dm7 C C7
You know you bound to wind up dead,
F G C
If you don't head back to Tennessee Jed.

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Addendum: After more Googling, I think I'm less confused. I should play a C full diminished scale, as opposed to a C half diminished scale, over that chord.

Some musicians play modes of the harmonic minor scale over diminished chords, but my brain and fingers aren't ready for that yet.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by Mixolydian Gray

There are a few different kinds of diminished chords scales. Which do I play over the C diminished 7 below?

C
Cold iron shackles, ball and chain,
F G C
Listen to the whistle of the evening train.
C Co7 Dm7 C C7
You know you bound to wind up dead,
F G C
If you don't head back to Tennessee Jed.

---------------------------------------------

I did some internet searches about this, but they confused and discouraged me. Some musicians play harmonic minor scales over diminished chords.

Thanks in advance.

I believe that Dm7 is actually a B dim7.

The family scale is whole step, half step C dim and B dim7.

For a simpler and maybe even more musical sounding approach try a straight up C dorian and shift to C Aeolian over the Bdim7. Not really as complicated as it might sound since you are really only flatting the 3rd and then flatting the 6.

You can also think of this as a II-V where the C dim7 (or Ebdim7) is about the same as a D7b9 and the B dim7 (or Ab dim7) is subbing for the G7b9. Which means you can use the half step whole step diminished over each (D for D, G for G). Not coincidentally a D half step whole step is the same as a C whole step half step and G half step whole step is the same as a B whole step half step. So why bother to analyze it this way? Because thinking of the chords as 7b9s opens the door to use the altered scales, D alt and G alt, over each. Which provides different note choices.

hunter

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mixolydian Gray

There are a few different kinds of diminished chords scales. Which do I play over the C diminished 7 below?

C
Cold iron shackles, ball and chain,
F G C
Listen to the whistle of the evening train.
C Co7 Dm7 C C7
You know you bound to wind up dead,
F G C
If you don't head back to Tennessee Jed.

Those changes are wrong. I'm not totally sure myself, but I hear them as this

|C               |B7b9b13(!)    |F/A       |C/G    C    |
|   You know you |    bound to  |  wind up |dead,       |

That second chord has a B bass, along with F# A C and D# (there's the Cdim7 chord), but also a strong G (technically a b13). So there's enough notes there for a scale already: B C D# F# G A. You're only missing an E of some kind, so E harmonic minor is the obviously implied scale (unless you want E#, that is... ).
But a more traditional jazz choice would be....

Originally Posted by Mixolydian Gray

Addendum: After more Googling, I think I'm less confused. I should play a C full diminished scale, as opposed to a C half diminished scale, over that chord.

Yes. If you add the B bass to the Cdim7 notes, C WH dim is what's implied. Call it "B HW dim" if you want to refer it to the bass note, but it's the same set of notes. It doesn't include that G I can hear in the chord (it has G# instead), but you don't have to care. (The G is less audible in later instances of the chord.)

Originally Posted by Mixolydian Gray

Some musicians play modes of the harmonic minor scale over diminished chords, but my brain and fingers aren't ready for that yet.

But they don't have to be. If you can play the Cdim7 chord, that's 4 notes. If you can play a B7b9, that's 5. It's only one bar! (I'd probably just stick to the arp myself.)
Start with the chord tones anyway. That's where the WH dim scale is easy, because you just add notes a fret below the Cdim7 arp - ie it's Bdim and Cdim7 arps combined (but favouring the Cdim7 chord tones, obviously).

(BTW, the C/G is not clear either. Definite G bass, but the chord is only clear to me on beat 3, when the C bass arrives.)

[zhunter]

Yes listening more carefully I am thinking both players are doing a falling 5ths run. Weir is playing an 8th fret 1st string C pedal note with the 3rd string 5th fret C and a second string falling fifth underneath the C pedal starting at the 8th fret. Garcia does the same with the falling 5 on the 4th string starting at the 5th fret playing a 5th fret C, E on top.

The bass is playing a C note with embellishments.

And because of what that falling 5 suggests the same basic scale recommendations work. But I like the dorian, aeolian choice.

hunter

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by zhunter

The bass is playing a C note with embellishments.

Speaking of that third line, it's only C on the first chord (and beat 3 of the 4th bar). B on bar 2, A bar 3, G bar 4 (beat 1). A few quick connecting notes, but those are the long notes on beat 1 of each bar.

I was listening to see what Garcia did in the solo, but (on one quick listen) they don't seem to play that sequence in the solo.

[Mixolydian Gray]

Thank you to all who've taken the time to share their musical knowledge with me. It's not easy climbing this mountain of scales and theory just to have fun with friends who also play guitar, but it's been the only thing that's improved my playing ability.

I haven't heard a Dead performance of "Tennessee Jed" I don't enjoy.

This is a good one to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7oNS-bDZqc