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  #16  
Old 02-04-2009, 11:40 AM
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Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
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Originally Posted by Eugenius View Post
Awesome, I love watching Tim's build's, very exciting. Tim, just out of curiosity, why do you prefer double sides?
Double sides are much stiffer and less prone to cracking than solid sides. They differ from "laminated' or "plywood" in that I use two pieces of tone wood with the grain oriented in the same direction.

Laminates use tone wood exteriors with high dampening low quality wood cores running at 90* to the exterior woods. This method of alternating grain orientation increases structural stiffness but it also increases sound dampening. They are strong but much higher dampening than the method I use.
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Last edited by Tim McKnight; 02-04-2009 at 11:48 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2009, 11:47 AM
Eugenius Eugenius is offline
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Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Double sides are much stiffer and less prone to cracking than solid sides. They differ from "laminated' or "plywood" in that I use two pieces of tone wood with the grain direction oriented in the same direction.

Laminates use tone wood exteriors with high dampening low quality wood cores running at 90* to the exterior woods. They are strong but much higher dampening than the results of the method I use.
excellent thanks
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  #18  
Old 02-04-2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
I'm using Tim's hollow-back option, his double-sides (standard on all his guitars now), and a single LS redwood top.
Since it is universally accepted that the top accounts for a huge majority of the sound a guitar produces, your choice for the double bottom rather than, or in conbimintion with, a double top sparked my curiosity. Again, out of pure curiosity, would you mind sharing your thinking on this decision.
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  #19  
Old 02-04-2009, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by El Conquistador View Post
Since it is universally accepted that the top accounts for a huge majority of the sound a guitar produces, your choice for the double bottom rather than, or in conbimintion with, a double top sparked my curiosity. Again, out of pure curiosity, would you mind sharing your thinking on this decision.
Basically this. I like the hollow back mainly because of the "clean" appearance of it. There's no bracing that's visible through the soundhole.

I'm not sure that I benefit much from the hollow back option, because I don't play standing up, and I don't seem to lean very much of the guitar back into my chest/stomach. The main benefit, as I understand it, of the hollow back is for those who DO push the guitar into their body when playing. The inner back is then left free to vibrate.

I thought about the double-top option for this guitar. Of the four McKnights I own right now (none were comissioned by me), two have double-tops and two do not. I don't notice a lot of difference (for my style of playing, which is very light) in resonsiveness, as best I can tell. I do notice a big difference between my cedar tops (one double, one single) compared my two spruce tops, tough.

Tim's seen me play several times now, and knows what my playing style is like. A couple of weeks ago, I asked him to confirm that he could make this LS redwood top very responsive for me, even as a single top. He replied that he could make it very responsive, whether it's a single or a double top. (Perhaps a double-top would have more headroom, but my playing style doesn't really need that extra headroom). I was basically asking one more time "am I making a mistake by going with a single top here, rather than a double?", though I didn't use those words, exactly. Tim's replies convinced me that I wasn't making a mistake.

I commented back that it almost seemed "wrong" to have a double-top made with a nice wood with a "story" like the LS redwood. Tim agreed, and commented that he's made double-tops with redwood before, but none yet with LS redwood.

Also, if I did a double-top, I'd have to decide what wood to use for the inner top. I suppose I could've used LS redwood for the inside, too, but then that would start to get rather pricey.

One other thing. When Tim does a double-top, each individual piece (inner and outer) is very, very thin. If there was ever any cosmetic damage done to the top, it would basically be impossible to fix it by sanding it out. There's just not enough wood to do that with a double-top.

Anyway, that was pretty much my thought process (or lack thereof ).
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  #20  
Old 02-04-2009, 03:08 PM
banpreso banpreso is offline
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i liked the adi/ walnut that tim took to california. so i guess the walnut is a winner!
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  #21  
Old 02-04-2009, 04:31 PM
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Default LS Redwood Top

SWF,
Just to get in on the LS top discussion - I happen to own the Bashkin LS 00 that is cited in the goodacoustics article and I can tell you that it is VERY responsive as a single top (Michael also uses double sides) and is incredible for a light touch. It is definitely a smooth and sweet sounding guitar as I'm sure yours will be with that tonewood combination and under Tim's expert hands. I look forward to playing it at Healdsburg also! Get set for a great guitar!
Scott
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  #22  
Old 02-04-2009, 04:35 PM
westcountry1 westcountry1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tim McKnight View Post
Double sides are much stiffer and less prone to cracking than solid sides. They differ from "laminated' or "plywood" in that I use two pieces of tone wood with the grain oriented in the same direction.

Laminates use tone wood exteriors with high dampening low quality wood cores running at 90* to the exterior woods. This method of alternating grain orientation increases structural stiffness but it also increases sound dampening. They are strong but much higher dampening than the method I use.
I wonder how this relates to Selmer style guitars?, many luthiers make Selmer style guitars with solid backs and sides but the hard core of the gypsy jazz community consider them to be lacking "The authentic sound".The original Selmers and the most highly rated luthiers in the gypsy field do tend to use the traditional three way mahogany/poplar/rosewood laminate used on the vast majority of the original Selmer models.Essentially it is two thin pieces of hardwood with the poplar middle to aid adhesion, considering many of the repro Selmers are hand made to a very high standard would they be considered laminates in the traditional sense or are they consider a different beast?.
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  #23  
Old 02-04-2009, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
Of the four McKnights I own right now (none were comissioned by me), two have double-tops and two do not. I don't notice a lot of difference (for my style of playing, which is very light) in resonsiveness, as best I can tell.
SF,
Hey thanks for the really thoughtful response. I was just being nosey, but, your reply had some surprising information.

I have thought about the rather pricey "double top option". My understanding is the whole point of a double top is to DRAMATICALLY increase the repsonseviness of the guitar. So, your light touch should have greatly benefited by it. However, your experience differs. Things that make you go, Hmmmmmmmm.

I wonder if Tim may want to weigh in on this?
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  #24  
Old 02-04-2009, 06:25 PM
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Tim completed my "Petoskey" guitar of coco and LS redwood last summer, and I too went with a single top. My basis for this decision is perhaps simplistic, but here it goes: I'm paying top dollar for a top that rings and rings and rings and rings (etc., ad nauseum) when tapped... so why would I want to mess with that? Can you really improve on it by doubling it up (and as has been pointed out, at significant cost)? Wouldn't you risk 'losing' that tone by adding a different wood in a double top?

The tone from my "Petoskey" guitar is incredible, and I too have tapped some of Tim's 1700s walnut -- which also rings for an incredible duration. I can only imagine that this walnut/LS redwood combo will be something truly amazing. Tim knows how to get the most from his creations.

Just one last note: I also have a delicate touch on the strings and use only the flesh of my fingers and thumbs. The LS redwood grabs every little bit of what I put into my playing and resonates gorgeously (though Tim wanted me to go with cedar...that's what the deposit is for, Tim, my 'next' McKnight!). You will not be disappointed with this choice of top, and my own opinion is that choosing a single top was a wise move (and, of course, choosing the LS redwood over traditional and sinker redwood, because it is truly a different beast).
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  #25  
Old 02-04-2009, 07:50 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Originally Posted by El Conquistador View Post
My understanding is the whole point of a double top is to DRAMATICALLY increase the repsonseviness of the guitar. So, your light touch should have greatly benefited by it. However, your experience differs. Things that make you go, Hmmmmmmmm.

I wonder if Tim may want to weigh in on this?
Tim should probably reply to this. I'll make a stab at it, but this is only MY opinion/interpretation . . which probably means it's wrong.

Anyway, both cedar and redwoods are very responsive woods to begin with. Thus, I think a single top can be made very responsive . . no need for the double-top option there. BUT, if you also want the guitar to be able to handle VERY heavy strumming, I think that's where the double-top comes in. It allows you to have both responsiveness and headroom.

Maybe with less responsive tops like spruces, the double-top option allows Tim to make the top more responsive than he'd normally want to make it?

I really don't know.
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  #26  
Old 02-04-2009, 07:52 PM
mmmaak mmmaak is offline
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Wait a minute, I've lost count.

This is SWF's McKnight number.........?
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  #27  
Old 02-04-2009, 07:55 PM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
My basis for this decision is perhaps simplistic, but here it goes: I'm paying top dollar for a top that rings and rings and rings and rings (etc., ad nauseum) when tapped... so why would I want to mess with that? Can you really improve on it by doubling it up (and as has been pointed out, at significant cost)? Wouldn't you risk 'losing' that tone by adding a different wood in a double top?
Thanks. That also mirrors the thoughts that went through my head when deciding on "single vs. double".


Quote:
Just one last note: I also have a delicate touch on the strings and use only the flesh of my fingers and thumbs. The LS redwood grabs every little bit of what I put into my playing and resonates gorgeously
Good to hear.

Quote:
(though Tim wanted me to go with cedar...that's what the deposit is for, Tim, my 'next' McKnight!).
My two favorite McKnights are cedar (one a double-top with Adi underneath). Tim works wonders with cedar. I'm hoping he'll do the same with the LS redwood. I wish yours had been strung up the times I visited Tim's shop. I probably would've stolen it for a minute or two to try it out.





Quote:
and I too have tapped some of Tim's 1700s walnut -- which also rings for an incredible duration. I can only imagine that this walnut/LS redwood combo will be something truly amazing. Tim knows how to get the most from his creations.
Ahhh, so you noticed that, too. It really is fantastic wood. I had a hard time choosing between the wood I got (with nice sapwood in it) and some really, really TIGHT-grained stuff. So tight you really couldn't even see the grain. It had excellent tap tone. Perhaps just a bit better than the pieces I chose (though I really think mine were just as good).


Quote:
You will not be disappointed with this choice of top, and my own opinion is that choosing a single top was a wise move (and, of course, choosing the LS redwood over traditional and sinker redwood, because it is truly a different beast).
Great! Now I can blame you if I end up not liking it.
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  #28  
Old 02-04-2009, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mmmaak View Post
Wait a minute, I've lost count.

This is SWF's McKnight number.........?
It depends on how you count.

I've bought one from Tim directly.

I've bought another from Artisan Guitars in Franklin, TN.

I've bought two used from members of the forum.

So, that makes 4. And I still have all of those.

I also bought another one used from a member of a forum. It was one of Tim's older models (serial number 9, I believe), so it was quite a bit less expensive than the ones I have. And, it was a dreadnought (EIR and Adi). This one I gave to a songwriter friend of mine in Nashville.

So, I own 4, but have bought 5.

So, this one is either #5 or #6, depending on how you count.

I think this makes me a major shareholder in McKnight Guitars. Though Tim and Mary haven't given me voting powers yet. I wonder if I should plan a takeover?
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  #29  
Old 02-04-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottR View Post
Just to get in on the LS top discussion - I happen to own the Bashkin LS 00 that is cited in the goodacoustics article and I can tell you that it is VERY responsive as a single top (Michael also uses double sides) and is incredible for a light touch. It is definitely a smooth and sweet sounding guitar as I'm sure yours will be with that tonewood combination and under Tim's expert hands. I look forward to playing it at Healdsburg also! Get set for a great guitar!
Thanks. That's a gorgeous guitar. Glad to hear that you like it for a very light touch.

Hopefully we'll run into each other at Healdsburg, and you can tell me what you think of my creation . . . or rather, Tim and Mary's creation.
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  #30  
Old 02-04-2009, 08:12 PM
mmmaak mmmaak is offline
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Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
So, I own 4, but have bought 5.

So, this one is either #5 or #6, depending on how you count.
Envious as I am....this is time for a group-shot of your McKnight family!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
I think this makes me a major shareholder in McKnight Guitars. Though Tim and Mary haven't given me voting powers yet. I wonder if I should plan a takeover?
Maybe not, but you could always pressure Tim into taking you in as an apprentice. I've heard he has a soft-spot for engineers
EDIT: However, I should warn you that Mary already turned me down once! Then again, I never had the money to make an "investment".
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Last edited by mmmaak; 02-04-2009 at 08:19 PM.
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