Dave Matthews Live Sound

[Joe Barbieri]

Posted by Eastmeadow Mike:
"Rick, I have to say, that the tenor of your posts always come off a tad condescending. Your experience is invaluable to many of us, myself included, but basically your tone (you love that word!) seems to be the only right one."

I have to agree Rick. Also, this seems to come up in threads on a regular basis. You yourself seem to be the reason that lot's of people take a shot at what you have to say. Your points are quite often overshadowed by the way you choose to make them. You should take some comfort and pride in the fact that most folks on this forum are knowledgeable and appreciative of your accomplishments and contributions here and not feel you have to remind them about who you are and what you've done in every post. There are many other qualified people on this forum and they do not need to get steamrolled on every point with which you disagree.

[astrummer]

Originally Posted by Rick Turner

Joe, get that boy an Aura right now! And get his producer to post process a bunch of that stuff for the re-release of any live CDs...

For those who are questioning Rick's motives--- it looks as if he just recommended one of his competitors products for this situation.

[Joe Barbieri]

Hi Rick,

I just wanted to ask you to take my last thread the right way.
I have no reason to criticize you and I'm not,it's just that it gets tiring when posters take a shot at you only because they think you are in their face. I know better so I'm hoping that post will slow that stuff down. An Aura huh? Might be a good idea!

JB

[jsmarshall]

Why do Dave threads always turn out like this? I would love to have a DMB thread started that could go on for pages without members bashing him on some aspect of his musicianship. Everyone lets just get back to the subject in a civilized manner. This be nice rule has been broken enough here.

[Rick Turner]

If the thread had been titled, "Dave Matthews's guitar playing and music" it would not have been about his live sound...

Look, Joe works for Fishman; I'm a co-founder of D-TAR. We are both trying to advance the state of the art for live sound. I know from experience that Fishman pickups can sound a hell of a lot better than as they are presented in the Dave Matthews live sound. I know also that if DM were to use his Fishman pickups through a Fishman Aura, the sound would be even better.

And on the matter of being critical... Are so many of you so uncritical as to imagine that anyone making the slightest negative comment is condescending? Maybe I'm just amazed at how uncritical so many of you really are...performers like DM seem to attract fans who will simply not accept any criticism whatsoever without feeling personally attacked.

I would guess that my most offensive comment was to the effect that DM didn't care about inflicting that sound on you, his loyal fans. How dare I suggest that he doesn't care...and then Joe pipes up...the guy who has put pickups into DM's guitars...and says basically that DM doesn't really care so much about his sound. So that makes me condescending?

Telling the truth around here is a dangerous act.

And it is possible to care about the music, the message, the audience, AND have a great sound...with Fishman gear or D-TAR gear or any number of other manufacturer's gear. All it takes is attention to detail and a willingness to care about tone.

[Taylor007]

Originally Posted by Rick Turner

Telling the truth around here is a dangerous act.
.

I disagree. Its all in how you do it.
Its called "tact." You're not a martyr for sharing your opinion on Dave's tone.

For example, If I were say D-Tar (whatever that is) sucks and you aren't doing a very good job at providing sound for people, you might not take it so well. Right?

[jsmarshall]

Rick, I think most would agree with me on this....

It's not your opinion that bothers us, it's your delivery. The thread had barely begun when you kick in with things like "Dave's sound is an insult." and "Yes, I'm a tone snob." yada yada yada.

For someone who is such a "tone snob" you'd think there would be consideration of your own "tone" in your messages. You should read them twice before you submit. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I get this pompous vibe when I read your posts. It's like you're talking down to me.

You're evidently very knowledgeable in the field of this post, so yes, your input can add to the experience of this thread. Just omit the pretentious tone that is attached.

And if you find my post here offensive, then I sincerely apologize. I am not one to break the Be Nice rule, so please forgive me. But now I hope you see where some of us (or at least me) stand in the situation.

-Stephen

[joe white]

Not to defend anyone here but I think we need to consider the amount of passion that Rick must feel for a plugged in acoustic sound/tone. Rick eats, breathes and burps this stuff 24/7 and he (along with Duncan) are trying to do precisely what we are all trying to do, sound better plugged in with an acoustic. I gave up. My Taylors sit in their cases if I am playing plugged in with a band. The Crowdster kicks butt live for me without sacrificing tone. If I play solo or small acoustic group then I go back to the real acoustics. Rick's delivery may often come off as condescending but heck, he is trying to save us all from horrible live sound.

[Eastmeadow Mike]

Enough.

Let's move on. Sorry I asked the question in the first place!!!!


Tell you this....if DM starts using Aura, you'll be looking to give away Mama Bear for free!



KIDDING RICK!!!!!!


I will review this whole thread. With some luck, and real focus, I'll find my answer buried in here somehow.

[joe white]

Woah there, easy Mike. I think several have offered up a few pretty good ideas why his sound is "quacky" as you described it.

Dave doesn't care.
Easier and more consistent with minimal set-up.
Loud shows don't allow for good acoustic tone.
Dave actually likes the quacky sound.

I'm sure there were more but these come to mind.

[Eastmeadow Mike]

Just trying to bring a laugh in.

I'm over it.

[Guyute]

Christians vs. Muslims, Liberals vs. Conservatives, PCs vs. Macs, DMB lovers vs. DMB haters....

Some debates are bound to stir up passion. I've been thinking this over since last night (I actually dreamed I went to a show with an Aura to throw on stage ) and I've come to the conclusion that while I agree with Rick that Dave's acoustic sound could really sound a LOT more natural, it doesn't really matter to me.

I've walked out of shows because I thought the overall mix was bad. I've walked out of shows because I didn't like the audience. I've walked out of shows because I thought the band sucked. But I've never walked out of a show because I didn't like a player's tone. I've heard people that sound better and I've heard people that sound worse than Dave. But I've come to the conclusion that I don't really care if Dave's tone sounds like an unplugged acoustic or an electric duck.

I will say that I strive to get as natural a sound out of my own amplified guitar as my budget and technology permits, I don't really pay much attention to other people's tone UNLESS they're playing instrumentals.

Would I like to hear Dave's tone improve? Sure, but I can honestly say that I might not notice. While I'm critical of my own tone, I don't go into a concert and focus on the tone of an acoustic guitar in a full band setting. I like to immerse myself in the overall mix. Now, if the vocal EQ is funky, THAT bugs me

BTW, Rick, I mentioned Jerry's tone, but I was actually referring to his electric tone. Lot's of people hated that, I liked it. As for his acoustic tone, I can't say I ever really thought he had a definable acoustic tone. The early stuff obviously suffered from the technology of the day. Later on, I never saw any live shows and the quality of the recordings I've got from the Garcia/Grisman days leave a little to be desired.

[woodruff]

i really dont listen to dmb or dave mathews a lot, actually not at all, but i have seen the austin city limits when he joined a bunch of country pickers for an ensemble show and he was playing that song about his dad or a dad(forgive me, i know really nothing about him or his story), but i loved the sound he was getting out of the old Martin, really dark and deep tuning and i notice that when i listened to a cd of him and tim reynolds, again, his acoustic guitar tone is very good. maybe he is mic'd in these settings, much smaller venues probably help too. but perhaps in the band situation he is just kind of filling a space, and the quacky higher end tone he figures blends in better. plus, he sues some kind of shallower guitar that just isnt ever going to sound like his Martins. Why he would chose this guitar over the martins is more of a concern/red flag in my mind, but the dude is the songwriter and leader of that band, and they are very successful at what they do, if ya like that jam bandy kind of swimming around sound, so i certainly couldnt bring myself to making a critique. but personally, i prefer him solo with his martin singing them darker songs. but that's what i am drawn to/write myself. but it begs a larger question: i often listen to bands that have an acoustic guitar and the tone just never matches what oen would get if they were in studio mic'd or a smaller venue, and i doubt that sound reproduction will ever be reached. i still am planning to install a K&K mini in my O16-NY for i hear that my tone will be kind of close to what i hear when i am playing in my bedroom. but i know going in that it wont be exact. But Kudos to Dave Mathews for choosing a minimalist approach live in his band. Whatever side of the fence you lean, in the end it's really just about the song, and getting it out. If you write the song, you should **** well own the process of how you want it presented.

[Rick Turner]

The problem is that too many of you cannot separate the issues of loving DM from critically listening to his tone. I'm sorry, but I'm of a generation that was brought up to think critically and to know the differences among the issues we are talking about. Too many of you took my words as a personal attack on your own taste in music. The discussion was intended to be about tone...go back and look at the title of this thread. I'm sorry, but truly intelligent critical thinking has gone to hell in a handbasket when one is not allowed to make negative comments about the slightest aspect of another person's hero's work. Must we all aspire to the lowest common denominator of tone here? That tone is the fast food of the guitar world...easy to achieve, fills you up, and does little for your long term health.

[woodruff]

Originally Posted by Rick Turner

Must we all aspire to the lowest common denominator of tone here? That tone is the fast food of the guitar world...easy to achieve, fills you up, and does little for your long term health.

Right on Rick. I hate the direction the live band acoustic tone is going, it is rampant. I dont know if it's the sound pople, or what, maybe we have given up trying to get an acoustic guitar to sound like an acoustic guitar in a large vnue setting, so we are doin ghwat we can techinically. but it will never really meet the mark. gain, this guy is not my guitar/songwriting hero inthe least, but if ya get a chance to hear his solo/duo stuff, with the martin, if there wer a way to bottle thattone and move it to the large DMB venue, he would have it(in my mind and my humble ears) But, dont ya think that if they could they would have already? I mean why have a thin acoustic live sound if oen doesnt have to. Couldnt he play his Martin instead, wouldnt that make a difference? Maybe not.