BOSE L1 Model 2 System

[mike o]

It's kind of weird how many folks will take the time to tear down someone else's belief in the Bose L1/B1 system. Its a love - hate with not much gray area. The only other item that causes as much turmoil is composite acoustic guitars. If, all the positive things said here and other threads related to the Bose system do not make sense to you, hundreds of thousands of folks who have placed their bet (money) to own this system, top notch customer support, etc. Then you have already made up your mind and this system is not for you. No big deal. For those curious about Bose and who are in the market for a sound system, take advantage of their 45 day trial period.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by mike o

It's kind of weird how many folks will take the time to tear down someone else's belief in the Bose L1/B1 system. Its a love - hate with not much gray area.

It is a strangely polarizing subject isn't it? I was using a set of EAW FR159z's before I got my first L1. To my ears at the time, they were the most natural sounding speakers I had ever owned. But they were big and heavy. And when I'd go and set up in a small space, the looks I'd get from folks at close by tables when I'd hoist one of those monsters up on a stand did not start the show off on the right foot!

Since going to the L1, I traded in a small SUV for a sedan. I now tour in a Toyota Camry getting 30+ mpg. I noticed right away that I would sell more CD's and hand out more business cards when using the L1. When I was living back in WI and playing sometimes 30 shows a month in the summer months, I was much more inclined to book two shows in one day, knowing that 1) my set up and tear down took minutes and 2) I'd have plenty of voice left. I am in and out of venues in one trip with a two wheeled cart! And that includes lugging CD's, t-shirts, a display table and a banner.

And perhaps most importantly, hearing myself through my PA system (something that never happened with the EAW/in-ear rig) made me really start to try and improve my live sound. I upgraded everything. I sing through a Neumann KMS105, I added a Porchboard to my shows (not possible with the EAW's) and I've become a nut about acoustic guitar tone.

With my old system, I would do a sound check and try the best I could to hear how I sounded through the mains out in the room. But that was it. I'd put in my "ears" and then after the show, go ask friends how it sounded. But with the L1 I hear everything. If something is bothering me, it's there song after song for the whole show and that will make me take the time to figure out what's going on and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I can't speak "high end" and make comparisons to tons of other products/systems. All I can compare it to is how I felt/sounded before I got it. It's been a great thing FOR ME. Up to now, I have never owned another piece of equipment that has done more to improve my live sound, my performances and my comfort level/relationship with my audiences than my L1.

Matt

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

...As to Daedalus speakers having a 20% sweet spot, that is objectively and factually untrue. Daedalus has done comprehensive tests of all of its speakers regarding dispersion at over 100 different frequency points. The all have excellent to superior dispersion specs, at least according to scientific evidence, with the SC1203 having the best specs (due in part to offset tweeters). ...

The dispersion patterns of a line array and a conventional speaker system are not comparable however superlative the conventional one may be.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

The dispersion patterns of a line array and a conventional speaker system are not comparable however superlative the conventional one may be.

Of course it's comparable. It's simple acoustic science. A two tower line array will have better dispersion than a conventional 2 speaker PA in the mid and high frequency ranges, with the dispersion of the bass frequencies about the same. In the case of the Bose L1, the PA should have slightly better bass frequency dispersion (2 sources vs. 1).

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Cakes

simple question of "does the L1 sound better than speaker "x" shows a lack of understanding of what the L1 is all about.

John

To you perhaps. To me, if it doesn't sound good in the first place, off the list it goes. The rest of it doesn't matter if the sound isn't there in the first place. I understand things very well. The L1 offers portability, ease of setup, limited control, great dispersion and direct monitoring. For me, the quality and behavior of the sound trumps those features. No big deal. You have different needs and desires.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Of course it's comparable. It's simple acoustic science. A two tower line array will have better dispersion than a conventional 2 speaker PA in the mid and high frequency ranges, with the dispersion of the bass frequencies about the same. In the case of the Bose L1, the PA should have slightly better bass frequency dispersion (2 sources vs. 1).

This graph, which I've posted before, illustrates why I said they weren't comparable although I was really thinking of projection rather than dispersion.

It seems to me that since frequencies below 100 Hz are essentially omnidirectional, the difference between having one or two sources for bass propagation isn't going to be noticeable but, now that I think of it, the crossover for the Bose bass module may be well above 100 Hz.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

This graph, which I've posted before, illustrates why I said they weren't comparable although I was really thinking of projection rather than dispersion.

It seems to me that since frequencies below 100 Hz are essentially omnidirectional, the difference between having one or two sources for bass propagation isn't going to be noticeable but, now that I think of it, the crossover for the Bose bass module may be well above 100 Hz.

Projection too. But, IIRC, when I researched that issue all the tests and discussions I found were lab/theoretical tests. Projection, much more than dispersion, will will affected by the room and the objects in that room. For example, if you place a L1 on the floor in a restaurant, about half of the tower will project well, and the bottom half will not project as well, because of all the chairs, tables, people that are physically in the sound projection's path.

I don't remember the crossover frequency for the L1, but seem to remember it's closer to 200Hz.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Projection too. But, IIRC, when I researched that issue all the tests and discussions I found were lab/theoretical tests. Projection, much more than dispersion, will will affected by the room and the objects in that room. For example, if you place a L1 on the floor in a restaurant, about half of the tower will project well, and the bottom half will not project as well, because of all the chairs, tables, people that are physically in the sound projection's path.

I don't remember the crossover frequency for the L1, but seem to remember it's closer to 200Hz.

Both conventional speaker systems and line arrays are subject to room acoustics and obstacles between the speaker and the audience.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Compurocker

Has anyone heard or own this system? It is amazing? How is it with Guitar and vocals together? My guess is incredible! On the Musicians part of their website the set it up in under 10 seconds! http://www.bose.com/controller?event...&src=MUSICIANS I imagine it is quite expensive.

I recently played an '07 Taylor 414ce through an L2 with the Tone Match system and was absolutely stunned. It was unbelievble. I'm planning to take my 414ce limited edition back to give it a try next weekend.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Both conventional speaker systems and line arrays are subject to room acoustics and obstacles between the speaker and the audience.

Hence my example of an L1, the bottom half of which is below seated head level in a restaurant. I don't remember the last time I saw PA speakers sitting on the floor below seated head level.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Cakes

Mackie board. Peavey mains for the most part, though I played in a number of churches with other systems. I've also played through a decent JBL system (pro install - not G2's).

I can see why you would prefer a Bose L1. Mediocre PA ==> Bose L1. That's pretty common.

Originally Posted by Cakes

For me, of the whole audience can't hear the clear sound, off the list it goes. To each his own. Meanwhile, you make my point well - that you're not fully grasping the benefits of the L1. While the things you mentioned are true benefits, those are only the obvious "at-a-glance" benefits, but there is much more to it.

Hearing one's self clearly means you play better, you interact better with your band mates, and the output becomes more musical. Both you and the audience benefit. It's not kool aid. It's a first-hand experience that's shared, as I mentioned, by thousands of others. Look, I respect that you found something you like better. That's great. But your traditional speakers and a line array, as Herb said, are not comparable, except for the fact that both reproduce sound.

As a solo player, I hear myself just fine. Typically, my mains are behind and to the side of me, or I have an Ultrasound monitor. Not the greatest, but it works well enough.

Yeah, I guess I just don't grasp the benefits of the L1.

Have you ever heard several Bose L1s at the same time? The absence of a mixer can cause brutal comb filtering effects, depending on numerous factors, most of which cannot be controlled. But that only deals with sound quality, so it's not a big deal.

Originally Posted by Cakes

The crossover frequency is 120. It drops down to 100 if there is no B1 subwoofer plugged in. (This is true of L1 Model 1 or Classic).

And how many dB have those 2.25" speakers (or is it 2.5") dropped off by 110 Hz, or 180Hz? -10dB? -15dB? -20dB? Bose won't tell you. That's OK, there's an independent study. It's about -10.5 dB at 280Hz. And how does Bose increase the lower mids of those speakers back towards (but not quite reaching) 0 dB? Bose won't tell you. It's done with massive eq'ing with all the associated baggage that causes (but that only affect the qualities of the sound).

Originally Posted by Cakes

They are not theoretical tests. While the math holds up on paper, the actual live listening experience bears out the math. And it's not a Bose thing, per se. The properties of line arrays (and their differences with traditional speakers) are well known and documented in pro audio circles.

I stated the research I had done (white papers, etc.) were all lab/theoretical tests. Line arrays have been around for decades. I fondly remember a concert with SLS line arrays. The real deal.

[rmyAddison]

+1 on everything sdelsolrey said.

He presented factual information about inadequate frequency response and the effects of EQ'ing to compensate, comb filtering with multiple units, etc. and didn't even mention the ridiculous price versus value.

This is NOT about line array versus conventional speakers. Line arrays go back decades and are an excellent technology. And yes, Bose does sound better than many inexpensive PA's in a box, but the speakers they use in their implemention are inadequate, inexpensive and dependent on back end processing to sound as good as they do, which is still extremely processed and compressed. If you can't hear that good for you, it truly doesn't matter to your world.

Enjoy your Bose!

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

Bose does sound better than many inexpensive PA's in a box, but the speakers they use in their implemention are inadequate, inexpensive and dependent on back end processing to sound as good as they do, which is still extremely processed and compressed. If you can't hear that good for you, it truly doesn't matter to your world.

Hi Rich,
I'd love to hear about the system you use when you play out. I cannot hear what you are talking about with the L1 which I guess IS good for me. Otherwise I'd have to go and buy a bunch of new gear! :-)

But since you are hearing what you are hearing with the L1, I would guess that your ears have evolved past my mine. And just like I enjoyed reading about and seeing pics of sdelsolray's system, I am very curious to find out what others, who do not like the way the L1 sounds, are using.

Maybe I'm misreading you but I do have to say, with respect, that you seem a tad angry in your displeasure with the L1. I know someone else brought up the intense "love/hate with no middle ground" that the L1 seems to conjure up in people. I wonder why that is.

Matt

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Cakes

The crossover frequency is 120. It drops down to 100 if there is no B1 subwoofer plugged in. (This is true of L1 Model 1 or Classic).

From the Bose WIKI:

Crossover

If there is no B1 and nothing connected to the Bass Line Out. The L1 sees frequencies from 110Hz up. Feeding it anything lower, doesn’t make sense, since it couldn’t produce any acoustic output and if would rip the drivers to shreds.
In any other case the L1 sees signals only from 180Hz up. There is no other variation in frequency or gain for the L1 no matter what else happens

[rmyAddison]

Matt,

Very fair questions.

I currently am using a Genz Benz Shenandoah Pro with matching extension cabinet for PA and a custom floor monitor with 15" driver, 12" horn and 6 band EQ. My rack has 2 Presonus Eurekas and Furman conditioner but I go direct as much as use them, as that is pre to pre and I have to pad. I am not saying it is the system to have by a long shot, I don't play out enough (about once a month) to warrant a system like sdelsolreys, but that is definitely the direction I would go. Mine does, to my ears, sound far more natural than the L1 however. It does not, to be fair, have the dispersion or fill of a line array, but I can honestly say I get compliments, mostly from musicians, on my sound.

I do have a fairly decent $30K home theater, midfi to me, and have friends with six figures theaters (Runco, Krell, Martin Logan, Wilson Audio, Snell, etc.), so I have some decent exposure to reference sound. I also have amazing Adam Audio nearfiled monitors and sub, they are reference quality and found in recording studios worldwide. I have played professionally and done sound for 40 years prior to moving to Texas.....hopefully I know a little.

Lines arrays are fantastic, Bose's implementaion is flawed in it's speaker selection and electronics. If you can't hear how compressed the sound is we have no common ground to have constructive arguements. And I'm sorry the bass modules, 6-1/2" speakers, low-mids at best not subwoofers, and I completely understand transmission line speaker cabinetry. To me it's just a poor implemention of a great idea.

You are not misreading me I have a problem with Bose the company. They spend zillions on marketing, prey on the general uninformed public with lifestyle products that are grossly overpriced, and perpetuate the myth that they are cutting edge and high end. They have a history of sueing anybody who published independent lab tests (because the specs are abysmal), there was a landmark Consumers Report case, and they bully their vendors in the presentation of their products. Go to any high end home theater forum and Bose is a dirty word, hardly jealousy, single component on decent systems cost more than any Bose system, it's their marketing and deception and sorry "the Bose sound", thin and anemic.

When I was young and poor I too thought Bose was the ultimate in sound reproduction. I'm old, not poor, and now know better. The L1 is better than many low end rigs, and the line array technology is excellent. My hackles come up when folks make outrageous claims about it being the best sound possible and folks who don't like it dont "understand".

I "understand", the dispersion is excellent, the ease of setup and size are big plusses, the sound.............old audio adage, small speakers, small sound.

Hopefully I've answered your questions, tried to be honest from my perspective, I'll pass on future Bose threads, peace.