McPherson Sable or Emerald X30

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

Are you only interested in results from X30 owners? I don't want to dilute the thread unnecessarily.

David, I guess anything you think that would be valuable should be fine. Its not my thread but it did shift focus from comparing 2 particular guitars to a wolf note on the X30. I for one became more interested in peoples experiences with wolf notes no matter the guitar model. Threads go sideways all the time and from what I see most OP's don't seem to be bothered.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

David, I guess anything you think that would be valuable should be fine. Its not my thread but it did shift focus from comparing 2 particular guitars to a wolf note on the X30. I for one became more interested in peoples experiences with wolf notes no matter the guitar model. Threads go sideways all the time and from what I see most OP's don't seem to be bothered.

Thanks. On second thoughts, I’ll stay out of it. My X20 data points are hardly relevant to either the OP or the wolf diversion

[Simon@Caulfield]

Hi Guys! I seen this topic when the thread was started but haven't been on the forum much lately! Apologies if i repeat anything that's already been stated (i've read through a lot of this thread, but not all of it).

Wolftones or dead spots are stemming from the natural resonance of the body interfering with the resonance of the note. I know i've heard in the past of players adding little weights to their headstock to counteract this and change the natural frequency (but to be honest this was more on electric guitars).

It can also be due to something within the guitar moving independently (not relevant but i've seen it caused by the springs holding the trem in a strat). It's unlikely but I'd suggest that it may be worth having a good feel inside to make sure everything is secured, and also maybe try the truss rod a quarter turn in either direction to eliminate it from possible causes.

Whilst i am well aware of what wolfetones are, i honestly didn't witness any on an X30 during my time at emerald. I also am not aware of any prior customers noting the issue.

In response to the lack of response from emerald, as mentioned i am no longer working there. I was the main connection to the forum recently, mainly because im on here a lot in my spare time. I know the guys are currently very busy (likely heightened by my departure) but [email protected] was the shared email inbox that everyone kept tabs on. Maybe send an email in there.

In response to the thread topic I dont feel i would be qualified to comment as I've never played a sable (but would love to someday).

As always, I will continue to be a part of this community, and will be here for anyone if I feel i can offer any constructive inputs My inbox is always open.

Simon

(formerly Simon@Emerald).

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by sgavy

Hi Guys! I seen this topic when the thread was started but haven't been on the forum much lately! Apologies if i repeat anything that's already been stated (i've read through a lot of this thread, but not all of it).

Wolftones or dead spots are stemming from the natural resonance of the body interfering with the resonance of the note. I know i've heard in the past of players adding little weights to their headstock to counteract this and change the natural frequency (but to be honest this was more on electric guitars).

It can also be due to something within the guitar moving independently (not relevant but i've seen it caused by the springs holding the trem in a strat). It's unlikely but I'd suggest that it may be worth having a good feel inside to make sure everything is secured, and also maybe try the truss rod a quarter turn in either direction to eliminate it from possible causes.

Whilst i am well aware of what wolfetones are, i honestly didn't witness any on an X30 during my time at emerald. I also am not aware of any prior customers noting the issue.

In response to the lack of response from emerald, as mentioned i am no longer working there. I was the main connection to the forum recently, mainly because im on here a lot in my spare time. I know the guys are currently very busy (likely heightened by my departure) but [email protected] was the shared email inbox that everyone kept tabs on. Maybe send an email in there.

In response to the thread topic I dont feel i would be qualified to comment as I've never played a sable (but would love to someday).

As always, I will continue to be a part of this community, and will be here for anyone if I feel i can offer any constructive inputs My inbox is always open.

Simon

(formerly Simon@Emerald).

Thanks Simon. I guess it’s good to hear that you haven’t heard many complaints about wolf notes during your time with Emerald.

[Alan Carruth]

Wolf notes on bowed instruments are much more of a nuisance than they are on plucked ones, because of the bow, which feeds energy in constantly. On a 'cello the string can be forced jump between it's fundamental pitch and the octave several times per second, so that it 'howls', 'warbles' or 'growls' depending on how bad the wolf is and the frequency. It's a very complex phenomenon, which was only figured out when the physicist Raman spent his summer off after grad school working on it. He later went on to win a Nobel prize.

Basically what happens is that the top of the bridge moves so much at this pitch that the string no longer 'sees' the bridge as a fixed end point, so it doesn't 'know' how long it is or what pitch to make. String vibration at the 'wolf' pitch stops, and it shifts up an octave to the next partial, until the body resonance dies down (because it's no longer being fed) and the bridge stops moving at that frequency. Then the whole cycle starts over.

'Cello wolf note suppressors are 'tuned dampers'. There is a mass-and-spring oscillator that is tuned to the pitch of the wolf note, with some sort of built-in damping to absorb energy at that pitch. When all else fails this serves to depress the response of that particular note. There are two types that I know of; traditional 'back string' dampers and the soundboard mounted ones that have come along more recently.

The back string damper is a metal tube lined with rubber, that has a slot in the side so that you can slip it onto the string between the tailpiece and the bridge. There's a set screw to hold it in place. You pluck the back strings to find the one that has a pitch a higher than the wolf note, and put the damper on it. The mass of the damper drops the string pitch, and the closer the damper is to the middle of the string the lower the pitch. When the damper is positioned right bowing the note will feed energy into the back string vibration in a way that acts to work against the motion of the top of the bridge. With the bridge 'nailed down' at the wolf pitch the string behaves itself, but you do lose response at that pitch.

The top mounted wolf eliminators are made possible by the fact that 'cellos are pretty well standardized in design, so they all tend to have their wolf notes at pretty similar pitches. I don't have any real experience with them, but the idea is to find the spot on the top of the 'cello that is most active at the wolf pitch and put the device there. There must be some way to 'tune' it to the correct pitch, of course. I suppose such a thing could be used on a guitar in a pinch.

I know a fine violin and viola maker who runs a shop. One time she got a puzzled call from the Customs Service: did she know that wolves are an endangered species in the US? They had a box from Germany addressed to her that was labeled 'Wolf eliminators' and wondered what she intended to do with them. It took some explaining.....

[GuitarLuva]

Another update, I took Bluestarfish's idea of using magnets as I found a set kicking around the house (shhhh don't tell the wife that there's 2 pictures missing from the fridge). Much easier to place these around compared to what I was doing beforehand so thanks again for the idea. By placing the magnets around in various positions I was only able to move the wolf around, not kill it completely. Pretty sure Alan was right about it being a top resonance issue. I just got a funny feeling that I won't be able to get rid of the wolf without doing something drastic like adding a sound port of some kind or something similar.

[121]

If the Emerald X30 wolf note dilemma is due to a top resonance issue and it appears not all X30s have the same wolf note issue.
Could having or not having wood veneer on the top be a factor ?

[mikealpine]

Originally Posted by 121

If the Emerald X30 wolf note dilemma is due to a top resonance issue and it appears not all X30s have the same wolf note issue.
Could having or not having wood veneer on the top be a factor ?

That’s a very interesting idea! Hope others jump in on this. Thanks!

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by 121

If the Emerald X30 wolf note dilemma is due to a top resonance issue and it appears not all X30s have the same wolf note issue.
Could having or not having wood veneer on the top be a factor ?

That's the info I was hoping to get from post#99. I know the 2 X30's I had both have a woody veneer and the wolf on D/Db. I would like to get my hands on a plain carbon top X30 to A/B but that will likely never happen. The wolf hunt is going to be put on hold as new info from another thread just came in. My Sable apparently sounds like a tin can so I have to take the time to figure out what happened and how to get it back to normal

[ed62]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

That's the info I was hoping to get from post#99. I know the 2 X30's I had both have a woody veneer and the wolf on D/Db. I would like to get my hands on a plain carbon top X30 to A/B but that will likely never happen. The wolf hunt is going to be put on hold as new info from another thread just came in. My Sable apparently sounds like a tin can so I have to take the time to figure out what happened and how to get it back to normal

I think you should buy a basketweave sable for your daughter to compare it against....apparently one sounds like a coke can and the other a pespsi can.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

My Sable apparently sounds like a tin can so I have to take the time to figure out what happened and how to get it back to normal

How do you think I feel? My X20s are, apparently, 'tin cans squared', and now I'm stuck with two of the darn things

[jdinco]

I guess I have a "tin" ear, I love the sound of the Sable !

[Captain Jim]

We tend to defend that which we like. I'm sure a lot of these "tin can" comments are tongue-in-cheek, as we all know that "carbon fiber guitars sound like plastic," rather than tin.

All the guitars being discussed here and on that other Sable thread are fine guitars. Any of them could be "one and only." Or, in the words of the philosopher Stephen Stills: "Love the one you're with."

There is a lot of tension in the world these days. Playing guitar takes me away from that, even if just for a while. Coming to this CF sub-forum is a nice break, as well. I like my guitars. I hope all y'all like yours.

Thanks for being here, folks.

[steelvibe]

I had a guy at work tell me that my OF660 sounded "tinny". Hmmm, sounds great to my ears.

I don't care what he thinks. I play what inspires me and what works best for the specs I know I prefer after decades of playing.

[121]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

That's the info I was hoping to get from post#99. I know the 2 X30's I had both have a woody veneer and the wolf on D/Db. I would like to get my hands on a plain carbon top X30 to A/B but that will likely never happen. The wolf hunt is going to be put on hold as new info from another thread just came in. My Sable apparently sounds like a tin can so I have to take the time to figure out what happened and how to get it back to normal

On posts #103 and #112 I commented what I found on my X30 but failed to mentioned it does not have a woody veneer top, sorry.
Also I'm not a finger picker, I only use a flat pick.

Post #103 I've unsuccessfully tried to detect B along with D/D+ wolf notes on my X30, but I only tried picking (with a 1.00mm pick) the B, D and D# notes, from soft to hard.
I'll report back if I eventually find a different frequency wolf note.

Post #112 The A and B strings appear to be okay from frets 1 to 12. My playing doesn't venture past the 12th fret.
For the other 4 strings the only note I found that appears louder than adjacent notes is a G note and it only occurs on the 1st string 3rd fret, so I'm not sure if it qualifies as a wolf note.
I did discover a fret board area with less sustain, the 6th string frets 11, 12 and 13 (notes Eb, E and F).
The E note 12 fret having the least sustain, almost dead.