Room Noise

[moon]

Listen in headphones first to convince yourself it really is a constant volume signal. Then prepare to be shocked... Well I was. Maybe you'll be luckier.

[j3ffr0]

I concur that you get more performance per dollar with fiberglass panels. If you don't want to do the DIY route, gikacoustics.com is by far the best deal I've found. I have a number of their panels, and I'm very happy with them. For me the GIK panels made the most sense by far vs DIY. I don't have a lot of free time, and I'd probably do a crappy DIY job and end up frustrated.

[ukejon]

Fascinating list of absorptive properties. Why would drapery on a wall be so much more effective across the spectrum than carpet on the floor...or for that matter a carpet hung on a wall?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ukejon

Fascinating list of absorptive properties. Why would drapery on a wall be so much more effective across the spectrum than carpet on the floor...or for that matter a carpet hung on a wall?

You have to take this list with a bit of a grain of salt, since it's not very specific. What type of carpet? How heavy are the drapes. But it's a ballpark for the concept.

By the way, I don't understand what I'm supposed to do with the home studio monitor testing samples and how will the result (which I have no clue how to obtain) help me better understand my space for recording?

I think that's an interesting site, but it is a bit hard to know what to do with the info. A more extensive tool is something like Room EQ Wizard (free) or ETF ($100?), software that can really analyze your room and tell you what your room response is at different frequencies. But even there, the easiest thing is to add some broadband absorption and not worry all that much about the details. Unless your room is really odd in some way, you just need to even out the frequency response with panels of some kind. There are some sites that will compute how many you need just from the size:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Fr...ysis--ora.html

Lots of good info here, too (lots of articles)

http://www.realtraps.com/index.htm

here's a good thread with lots of pointers:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...look-here.html

Fran's homebrew site that Chris already pointed you to has lots of good tips, too, and you can see all the exploration I went thru back when I treated my room here:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/studio.php

You can go nuts with this stuff, reading and measuring and computing, or just start putting up some panels homemade or purchased and see how it helps. Up to a point, more is better, and you'll know if you're getting so dead it's not pleasant to play in. Chris said he built 20 panels, I think. I have equivalent of about 30+ in my space. All depends on the size of your room. You can also just do part of a space, have an absorptive corner. You can also get away with just close micing, and less treatment.

But, I didn't hear any particular bad room sound on your recording, so it's not clear how dramatic the change will be by going crazy with this. An average furnished room isn't all *that* bad for recording as long as you're close micing. One of the biggest impacts is on monitoring. It's not all that uncommon to record in fairly live rooms. But it's hard to monitor your sound and mix, EQ, etc in a room that has uneven frequency response. There are a lot of pros these days who record at home, in mediocre rooms, but then send their tracks out to a pro studio for mixing, partly for the experience of the engineer, partly because they have the gear, and partly because they have good mixing rooms.

[ukejon]

Thanks so much, Doug. I'm beginning to see the same pattern, namely that so much of what one reads online is to help out producers and the like who need to listen to recordings through monitors. My carpet is an old wool oriental. If nothing else, it will look good on the wall. I will probably go with 4 screens or so made from the right kind of fiberglass and also use the Primacoustic Voxguard. Now I have to figure out the right camera angle so I also can record these vids for YouTube....boy this sure get complicated.

[Doug Young]

My studio's 3/4 of a 2 car garage. Most of my "panels" are built into the walls, into the ceiling (which is 100% fiberglass), and corners. I have 8 4x2 traditional-looking panels hanging on walls, and 8 more 2x2 half panels. But the heavy lifting is done by the stuff I built in. My room is probably 50% absorptive and 50% reflective surfaces. Still a home-grown effort, but it seems like a reasonable result. You can hear the difference when you enter the room, especially coming from the rest of the house, which is very live with stone floors, but it's still pleasant to just sit in and play.

At the same time, I often record in untreated spaces. All my recent you tube videos are in a completely untreated bedroom 10x10 or so, with carpet and all hard walls. Seems to work fine, tho I do mix and edit those in the studio environment.

[moon]

Here's an interesting blog post from Fran Guidry. Room treatment is not just for producers Reflections can really mess up the tone and definition in the sound you capture. Every room is different - small ones are probably the worst.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by moon

Room treatment is not just for producers Reflections can really mess up the tone and definition in the sound you capture. Every room is different - small ones are probably the worst.

Of course. Thats why there are hundreds of books and posts and websites about it, and if you look at my space, why I went a little crazy with it. But I'd suggest for most people that they put it in perspective. For most people, you're not going to fill your living room with room treatment. And listen to Jon's recording. Does it sound like bad acoustics? I don't think it does. Would it be incrementally better with a lot of room treatment?. Yes, but it's question of how much effort he wants to go to relative to the gain. *Lots* of acoustic CDs are recorded in untreated spare bedrooms, and not just by amateurs. As long as your needs are modest, and you can close mic, you can do pretty well without going crazy. But yes, it's not "just for producers", it's just much more critical for mixing. Depending on your room, it may or may not be a deal breaker during the recording, tho it never hurts. If your spouse will let you take over a room and install fiberglass everywhere, it's very likely to improve things. If not, it's not the end of the world.

[moon]

Sorry wasn't trying to pick you up on anything that was meant to be a reply to ukejon.

Also didn't realise the link had already been posted. It's a good one to listen to so you can get an idea what sort of effect reflections can have.

[ukejon]

If your spouse will let you take over a room and install fiberglass everywhere....

Shhhh! Don't tell her.

By the way, Doug, would you recommend a panel hung from the ceiling directly above the place where I record? And I really like your comment "....it's still pleasant to just sit in and play". Much in the way that my woodworking shop (man cave) is a cool space, it will be nice to have a great sounding and neat looking environment in which to focus on guitar and uke playing.

And Moon, I agree that Fran's video is very convincing.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ukejon

By the way, Doug, would you recommend a panel hung from the ceiling directly above the place where I record?

Ceiling treatment seems to help. Back when I was trying to learn about this stuff, I found a lot of discussions about it being a good way to go, and is also nice in that it's a place you can put a lot of treatment and keep it out of the way. Corners are another very effective place to control bass buildup.

And Moon, I agree that Fran's video is very convincing.

Fran's video is cool because it shows how little is really needed to have some effect. You don't have to do massive treatment of the whole room when all you're doing is recording a single acoustic instrument. A little local environment can have a big effect.

But I still don't really notice this as even being an issue for the recording you shared, at least. You have a noise issue, but unlike a lot of recordings posted here, nothing leaps out as particularly bad room sound. And a few panels won't do very much to reduce noise if it's coming from household noises, computer, etc. Maybe a little, but it takes work on isolation to really reduce noise, which is a very different problem than reducing reflections and flattening out room modes.

[ukejon]

Yep, I hear ya about the difference between the two: isolation clearly is of primary concern, an absolutely essential first step for clean recording; then shaping the sound in the room is a cool additional treatment that has the potential make both recording and practice sessions more aurally enjoyable. I look forward to improving both. Will send pics in a couple of weeks when I get set up.

Now, if I wrap the cat in rock wool and burlap, will his constant assaults on my mic stand during recordings sound less jarring?

[alohachris]

Nah, Ukejon,

I'd go around the neighborhood & scavenge for several cats. Then I'd stuff 'em w/ OC 703 & hang 'em in the corners of the room for use as decorative bass traps!

Eh, works for me, Uke, with all da crazy wild pigs we have up runnin' around up here tearing down the forest. They like to scratch their okoles on the posts of my house. The whole place shakes at night! Really! I run them off. But if they don't, I shoot 'em, then call our neighborhood pig meat collector who comes anytime night or day & splits it with me for the imu. Yummy! It just keeps them from chewing up the whole rainforest & destabilizing my house foundation. They are a real problem here in Hawaii.

Seriously, it's not much of an investment in time or money to make half a dozen of those portable DIY gobos that Fran so well describes. You can place 'em anywhere you need them & store out of the way when not using. You don't need any skill. I usually can make 3-4 of them in an afternoon.

Ya buy a box of (12) regular 2"x2'x4' OC 703 (under $150). Double 'em up to 4"x2'x4' (spray glue) & wrap them w/ a cheap porous material like white burlap (fabric store or Walmart). Ya need a few cans of Loctite Heavy Duty spray adhesive, a cheap glue gun & glue sticks ($10) from Walmart for gluing the corners & that's it. If you decide to do it, PM me & I'll give you the specifics. It really is not a big deal & the results will blow you away on your recordings.

If every player started their home recording process by building a half dozen of these instead of saving treatment for last, there'd be a whole lot better recorded guitar music out there. And think of the money it would save in unnecessary gear upgrades that won't help as much or fix the problem. In fact, one of the main reasons why youtube video's mostly suck is because of the untamed reflections in the rooms being used, even if the music is great.

I'm a real believer. DIY room treatment really has worked for me - providing the biggest + for quality of all by far for my home recording.

BTW, I know the guys at the Kaneohe uke shop. They're really getting it going now. Some very good players work there too. Nice uke.

BTW, the darkest colored Koa that anyone used in the last 25 years for musical instruments was cut in the early 90's in the back of the Palolo valley here on Oahu. It's so dark, choke curl, & unique that it was known as the "Mother of Curl" tree. Cut by Bart Potter. It looked like Black or black Bastogne Walnut it was so dark! I still have several uke sets that I never used. Wish I had a camera or knew how to scan adequately or I'd send it to ya.

Cats aside, all the best to you in this initial learning phase of home recording. Your music & playing are so good that I know you'll learn to complement it spectacularly in the near future.

Here's Ethan Winer's the bible on room treatment. Should keep ya busy & confuse you for weeks. It did me at first. But it's been a real help, Ukejon.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Another even cheaper way to control mid-range frequencies ONLY (you need the OC 703 for bass & lower room frequencies & for use as bass traps in the corners) is using mover's blankets. You can hang a couple layers 4" off the wall & 4" between the rows & really help tame the basic room reflections. I hang a layer or two off the many windows in my space when I'm recording. Get em used for free from a movers. Wash 'em & hammer in grommets. Then hang 'em where ya need them, Simple & cheap. But OC 703 is the best!

A Hui Hou, Alias!

alohachris

[ukejon]

Spent a long time on Ethan's site over the weekend. Great source of info. By the way, his Cello Rondo on YouTube is pretty cool.

[CrankyChris]

It's definitely a problem. I try to use cardioid and supercardioid microphones - and close micing techniques. Point the mic away from the noise source. Put your computer in another room/closet.