Ohio by Neil Young

[Cabarone]

Originally Posted by beatcomber

I'm sure the events of today are being effectively addressed in song, but you won't easily find them on the airwaves and streams, which are much more tightly under corporate control now than they were 50 years ago.

So, in that respect you are correct that the current generation is unable to send such a searing message to today's young people.

Check out Tre' Burt's "Under the devil's Knee" (one of the newer artists signed to John Prine's Oh Boy label)...

[Bob Womack]

There is an instant, primary survival lesson to be learned from the Kent State incident, one that is taught to citizens who take concealed-carry courses. In that context the lesson is taught in reference to contact with police officers: if stopped by a policeman do not argue, do not resist, comply with the officer's demands. That authority figure has a weapon, likely a superior tactical position, and probably has adrenaline coursing through his veins in a fear reaction. You can sort out the legalities and morality of the situation later in court. Just don't accelerate a situation when faced with an armed person.

How does this relate to the National Guard and the students? The students had assaulted police, firemen, and the National Guard, and had thrown rocks, injuring two of the Guardsmen. The guardsmen had weapons and were, by that time, cranked on adrenaline. Jim Croce offers practical advice:

You don't tug on Superman's cape,
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old lone ranger
And you don't mess around with Jim.

Don't assault men with weapons. Just sayin'.

Bob

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I can’t disagree with that and I won’t. It is right to do what we can. To me that means doing something concrete for those who suffer, not just talking, pointing fingers and writing songs. None of that has changed a thing, nor has it reduced conflict and tragedy, ever.
That’s why I don’t care for the song. YMMV

It turns our we have some shared views...especially about the value of DOING something to reduce suffering.

I am not sure that songs ever "do" something, except when they are sung as a part of benefit concert. Mostly, they invite people to adopt a particular viewpoint...and to my mind, whether that is helpful depends upon the listener's state of mind and their emotional (and spiritual) health and maturity. The song that soothes some of my discomfort about being rejected might be a song that triggers rage for someone else, and prompt them to go on a killing spree. The song that I hear as a call to recognize a tragic tendency to see "others" as an enemy to be controlled or eliminated, rather than as fellow countrymen and fellow humans might land for you as an unjust blame of people who were caught up in the heat of the moment and who made a tragic but understandable mistake...and we both might be right.

Whether either of us are moved to "do" something that is actually wise and helpful after listening to "Ohio" depends entirely upon us. Most of the time, both of us will retreat to our comfortable perches where we judge the folks like ourselves as right, and folks unlike ourselves as wrong...which doesn't seem particularly wise or helpful to me.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

It turns our we have some shared views...especially about the value of DOING something to reduce suffering.

I am not sure that songs ever "do" something, except when they are sung as a part of benefit concert. Mostly, they invite people to adopt a particular viewpoint...and to my mind, whether that is helpful depends upon the listener's state of mind and their emotional (and spiritual) health and maturity. The song that soothes some of my discomfort about being rejected might be a song that triggers rage for someone else, and prompt them to go on a killing spree. The song that I hear as a call to recognize a tragic tendency to see "others" as an enemy to be controlled or eliminated, rather than as fellow countrymen and fellow humans might land for you as an unjust blame of people who were caught up in the heat of the moment and who made a tragic but understandable mistake...and we both might be right.

Whether either of us are moved to "do" something that is actually wise and helpful after listening to "Ohio" depends entirely upon us. Most of the time, both of us will retreat to our comfortable perches where we judge the folks like ourselves as right, and folks unlike ourselves as wrong...which doesn't seem particularly wise or helpful to me.

No judgement here...I just don’t like the song, especially the opening verse.
The rest of the lyrics are nearly as bad.
I really enjoy Neil Young’s music and our duet plays a number of his songs.
For my part, the political stuff he can keep to himself as with all musical artists. Unfortunately they have a platform.
The good news is I can turn it all off whenever it occurs.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

No judgement here...I just don’t like the song, especially the opening verse.
The rest of the lyrics are nearly as bad.
I really enjoy Neil Young’s music and our duet plays a number of his songs.
For my part, the political stuff he can keep to himself as with all musical artists. Unfortunately they have a platform.
The good news is I can turn it all off whenever it occurs.

Well, i was responding to your earlier post. If your dislike of the song os rooted in the specific (“political”) viewpoint expressed, that is a very different matter, and one that is discouraged from being discussed on AGF.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Well, i was responding to your earlier post. If your dislike of the song os rooted in the specific (“political”) viewpoint expressed, that is a very different matter, and one that is discouraged from being discussed on AGF.

No, actually I don’t like the song for other reasons.
I was speaking in general terms about some other stuff he has written that we can’t discuss.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Nothing has changed. Innocent died as recently as last year in riots in this country. At the hands of rioters or whatever they were.

I don’t recall the national guard firing volleys into the crowds of fellow Americans. We have learned quite a bit and changed for the better.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Nothing has changed. Innocent died as recently as last year in riots in this country. At the hands of rioters or whatever they were.

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I can’t disagree with that and I won’t. It is right to do what we can. To me that means doing something concrete for those who suffer, not just talking, pointing fingers and writing songs. None of that has changed a thing, nor has it reduced conflict and tragedy, ever.
That’s why I don’t care for the song. YMMV

First IMO you could not be more mistaken. The visual arts , literature, and music, always has, and always will be, a contribution to change. Maybe not overt, but a factor none the less. The fact that conflict and tragedy still exist is no proof of that contribution not existing .

Are you certain you know the real reason you don't like the song ?
Because your reasoning seems to change with different posts .

None of that has changed a thing, nor has it reduced conflict and tragedy, ever. That’s why I don’t care for the song. YMMV

I just don’t like the song, especially the opening verse.
The rest of the lyrics are nearly as bad.

If you actually believe that writing songs has not ever changed "a thing" or reduced conflict or tragedy "ever" .... Then not liking a song because it does not do something you believe songs don't do, seems a bit conflicted .

And If you actually and (simply) do not like the aesthetics of the crafting of the lyrics themselves ,,,,,, then whether or not the song effected some cultural change is totally irrelevant to holding that valid personal opinion.

[rokdog49]

Thanks for your responses, it’s always nice to be told I am mistaken.
No point in further discussion on my part but by all means please feel free to continue among yourselves.
I’m going to continue not listening to Ohio and other protest music.
Have a great day.

[J Patrick]

...it was after all an anthem that spoke directly to the current events of the day....similar songs are being written today by a new generation speaking to today’s current events....such things will happen in times of unrest....

...yes it’s political and perhaps should not have been brought up here on the AGF...

[Glennwillow]

I graduated from college at Purdue in June 1970. The Kent State shooting took place May 4, 1970, so a month before I graduated and got married and started my professional life.

We had been through Bobby Kennedy's and Martin Luther King's assassinations two years earlier, the Vietnam War was raging and dividing America, so the Kent State shooting was just one more upsetting event. I felt badly for people on both sides of the line in that situation.

I remember it very well. I grew up in Northeast Ohio in the Cleveland area, I attended week-long, YMCA leadership conferences at Kent State over several summers so I new the campus reasonably well, and I was a college student at the time. I had several friends who were students at Kent State at the time, including a sister-in-law. To me, Kent State seemed like it was just down the road an hour and a half away. I knew Kent State's campus much better than I knew Ohio State's campus, where I swam in state swimming meets year after year.

Regarding the writing of songs like "Ohio," I understood why the song was written. For me, I'm afraid that I tended to avoid writing songs that divided people. I tried to write songs that pulled people together, but I'm not sure I was ever successful at that, either.

We lived through turbulent times. My parents, who lived through World War II, both having served in the USA armed forces, said that the Vietnam era was the most frightening time for them by far. I was so busy being an engineering student that I was unaware of what was being shown on TV. I didn't have a TV. I kept my head down and worked very hard, and maybe that saved me from much of the uproar and anger. I was lucky in so many ways.

- Glenn

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

...it was after all an anthem that spoke directly to the current events of the day....similar songs are being written today by a new generation speaking to today’s current events....such things will happen in times of unrest....

...yes it’s political and perhaps should not have been brought up here on the AGF...

The prohibition is against "discussion" of politics, not acknowledging it can be a factor in music history. As long as it stays within historical and cultural significance, boundaries (which it did), just as religion can't be discussed, but worship music can. Myself I see little difference

[Golffishny]

I like music to make me feel good. I have no use for songs that preach or push an agenda anymore that a pundit or preacher on TV. On Neil Young, since I don't chase a buzz anymore his music doesn't impress me. Obviously others will disagree. Listen to what you like.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

I graduated from college at Purdue in June 1970. The Kent State shooting took place May 4, 1970, so a month before I graduated and got married and started my professional life.

We had been through Bobby Kennedy's and Martin Luther King's assassinations two years earlier, the Vietnam War was raging and dividing America, so the Kent State shooting was just one more upsetting event. I felt badly for people on both sides of the line in that situation.

I remember it very well. I grew up in Northeast Ohio in the Cleveland area, I attended week-long, YMCA leadership conferences at Kent State over several summers so I new the campus reasonably well, and I was a college student at the time. I had several friends who were students at Kent State at the time, including a sister-in-law. To me, Kent State seemed like it was just down the road an hour and a half away. I knew Kent State's campus much better than I knew Ohio State's campus, where I swam in state swimming meets year after year.

Regarding the writing of songs like "Ohio," I understood why the song was written. For me, I'm afraid that I tended to avoid writing songs that divided people. I tried to write songs that pulled people together, but I'm not sure I was ever successful at that, either.

We lived through turbulent times. My parents, who lived through World War II, both having served in the USA armed forces, said that the Vietnam era was the most frightening time for them by far. I was so busy being an engineering student that I was unaware of what was being shown on TV. I didn't have a TV. I kept my head down and worked very hard, and maybe that saved me from much of the uproar and anger. I was lucky in so many ways.

- Glenn

Interesting Glenn... My life during those times was different from that and sometimes was as turbulent as the times, not really angry as much as simply varying between determined and riding the lighting . I think it would very interesting to be able to sit down and have a " When you were there" type discussion
For example I do not think one can accurately categorize "Ohio" as simply being intended to divide, because at the time I don't think there was as much division about "protest songs" as there is now.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Interesting Glenn... My life during those times was different from that and sometimes was as turbulent as the times, not really angry as much as simply varying between determined and riding the lighting . I think it would very interesting to be able to sit down and have a " When you were there" type discussion
For example I do not think one can accurately categorize "Ohio" as simply being intended to divide, because at the time I don't think there was as much division about "protest songs" as there is now.

I think we can see the division right here in this thread about the song, "Ohio." And there certainly was division in the USA back then about our involvement in Vietnam.

Even for people like my parents, who were very much against the US involvement in Vietnam, for them it would have been completely unacceptable for any of their children to be involved in a protest over Vietnam.

There was extreme division then as there is now. A song about a tragedy because of a protest, ensuing riots, and shooting into a crowd from the peacekeepers, only exacerbates the division in my opinion.

We are all going to view these things differently. For myself, I have never identified with protest songs. I'm kind of where Bob Dylan was when he wrote "My Back Pages." There is too much I don't know to be doing any preaching.

- Glenn