Preamp recommendation for fingerstyle

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by bbrown

Hey Sage, it's OK to hijack the thread - I would like to learn what Chris has to say. So feel free to wander wherever you want.

--Bill

Thanks Bill.

I am very contented with my Apogee/iMac combo but I am in somewhat of am experimentation mode. I have heard great results with the Pacifica and the Avalon but was wondering if there were sub $1k offerings out there.

I had sold my much beloved FMR RNP because I just couldn't hear how it added to the results I heard straight into the Apogee. So if they exist, I was hoping for some leads on enhancing what the Apogee offers without jumping into the $1.5k and over price range.

[Fran Guidry]

If someone offered me a "preamp recommendation for fingerstyle" I'd hope for a _demonstration_ of the qualities that make it more suitable than some other choice. Some bit of audio that _showed_ how this preamp was better than some other when recording fingerstyle acoustic guitar.

If someone suggested that a Mac resulted in better _audio quality_ in my recordings than a PC I'd certainly want to hear a clip that demonstrated the difference.

Preamps and A/d converters are about transparency, except for those offered as "color" tools. Transparency means "no sound of its own."

I'm not really responding to the OP, but this thread made me think of all the threads I read when I started trying to learn about recording fingerstyle guitar, and all the money I spent on boxes that were supposed to improve my recordings. Those boxes are all gone now, because what I learned was that transparency is easy to accomplish with modern medium (or lower) priced gear, and the real issues are the sound in the room, the mic placement, and the recording levels.

Fran

[alohachris]

Aloha Fran,

You're absolutely right, Braddah Fran. It aint the gear. It's learning the skills of using the gear that counts. Gaining the experience of say, mic placement, using miking patterns, recording while playing & singing simultaneously, & how to use treatment in a room for greatest maximization of the gear, voice & instruments that is the key to achieving good results in home recording. Of course, it doesn't happen overnight no matter how much we wish it to. It's an iterative process.

But we all have to start somewhere, with some kind of recording signal chain & gear. Some work better than others for different players. When you're first starting out, you come to forums like this one for looking for clues as to how to get going with a recorded acoustic sound & also how to avoid spending money excessively on magic boxes that don't work as promised. Until the skill set is in place.

Some players like you, Ty Ford, Bob Womack & Doug Young are, thankfully, very adept at quickly providing not only audio, but video evidence to back up your opinions about various gear & techniques. We all love that. Yes, it means a lot in terms of forming an educated opinion.

Some of us are players first who may have long experience performing or recording experience going back into analog days, but who are relative newcomers to DAW home recording. I'm in this camp. My lack of computer accumen usually sabotages my ability to share clips to back up my points. I just get frustrated & cannot quickly set up things here to link up. I'm much better at playing, tracking & mixing, building on many years of knowledge at things like mic placement, how to "sell" a song to an intended audience, & appropriate front-end combinations for music/instruments/voices than throwing up a clip.

So I provide opinions based only on what I have tried, what has worked & what has not worked for me. That's what I was trying to do here with Bill Brown. But I have no clips to prove my points. Few here do I might add.

I have tried out nearly everything Bill is looking at. I made a change & a choice a few years back based on what really worked for me, moving from PC/PTLE/MBox & 003 to iMac/Logic Pro/Apogee Duet & Ensemble. The piece of entry-level gear that had the most impact on my recorded sound at the time was the Duet, the amazingly pristine sound of that interface's mic preamps. AND IT'S NOT AVAILABLE FOR USE WITH PC'S. Of course, what ultimately made the biggest difference of all was room treatment (again, Mahalo for your DIY absorber video - great)!

By comparison, IMO, the mic pre's on the interfaces that Bill is looking at are all inferior to the Duet's. The Duet sounds much better than other entry level or even some higher end & more expensiver preamps - to many.

Plus, the stability issues of PC's with many DAW's are also widely documented & known. Mac/Apogee recording rigs ARE, IME, more stable for beginners who are largely making the simple kinds of 1-2 track acoustic guitar tracks of most players here. I haven't had one crash in over two years with mine. That's worth investigating, don't you think? I mean, no one would ever want to go through what I did for a year with PC's & PTLE. It's amazing I even wanted to continue, it was that bad, the crashes & error messages. I'm trying to help others avoid those kinds of issues. Of course, I'm not saying that ALWAYS happens w/ ALL PC's & DAW's either.

Therefore, I was merely suggesting to Bill that in the longrun, a Mac/Apogee rig may provide better sounding recordings & more stable recording experiences for him than the gear he is currently considering. I feel that that approach would be more cost-effective in the longrun - based on my experiences alone, without audio evidence.

Alas, Bill has stated that he can't swing a rig like that at this time. That's cool. However, the main thing I wished to accomplish was planting the seed that he may do better down the road considering alternatives to his current path. That's it! I was trying to help Bill form an educated opinion based on my not too long ago experiences with the same gear & the DAW he is considering.

I wasn't trying to paint a rosy picture to Bill of magic boxes leading to perfect acoustic recordings - on a budget. Again, it's the skill that's important. But you still do have a few magic boxes, mic's, pre's, & guitars around you, to go with your considerable talent at playing kiho'alu & recording skills, right Fran?

In terms of his use of "fingerstyle" preamp? I think it's just semantics. Bill was just telling us the style in which he likes to play, even though that has nothing to do with preamps necessarily.

Someday, I'll be able to provide audio evidence to back up my suggestions. Until then, we will continue to enjoy yours, Ty's, Bob's & Doug's, Fran, as well as others' opinions. Mahalo for that as always, my friend.

Mahalo a nui,
alohachris

[rick-slo]

Macs or PCs in and of themselves have no effect on the recorded sound so go with whatever floats your boat for whatever other reasons. I have always preferred PCs because they let you get under the hood more and tweak things. They are also usually cheaper for what you get. These are issues other than simply making music however.

[theotigno]

This morning got a recording done for some background music for a promo ad. After getting it done, I realized it would be good to post The Dry Track so you can hear how the Echo Audiofire 4 sounds straight.

The dry track goes between:
[a] MXL 603s
[b] Dimarzio DP139, Fire-Eye Red-Eye

Quick note: I have used the MXL 603s along side with the Shure SM81 when running sound for a choir, and I preferred using the MXL. The one tangible difference was that it ran hotter. Other than that, everything is subjective. Don't know what that means in regards to recording solo acoustic guitar; it might make for a good shootout if I can bring the SM81's home with me one day. Oh, and I guess I should state, my room is not treated at all ...

So, just in case you wanted to hear how the Audiofire 4 sounds raw. If it works out that it could be a good option, it would only be a matter of getting a firewire laptop card.