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  #1  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:57 AM
lar lar is offline
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Default Setup Specs

I decided to learn guitar setup myself, so I purchased Dale Erlewine's book. I also reviewed how other people (some on this forum) setup guitars.

Compared to everyone else, Dale is more 'aggressive' (lower string height). For example, he likes a flat neck but recommends 0.004" relief, compared to .010-.026" for others. His recommended string height is .039-.063" on fret 12 (treble-to-bass), and .012-.02" at the first fret (again, treble-to-bass). Again, this is significantly lower than all the other 6 setup recommendations that I reviewed.

So I'm wondering if anyone has used Dale's specs and if so what their experiences have been. For my playing, I would say my attack on the strings is light to moderate - I'm not aggressive.

Any thoughts or good/bad experiences you can share would be great!

Thanks
Larry
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:17 AM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lar View Post
I decided to learn guitar setup myself, so I purchased Dale Erlewine's book. I also reviewed how other people (some on this forum) setup guitars.

Compared to everyone else, Dale is more 'aggressive' (lower string height). For example, he likes a flat neck but recommends 0.004" relief, compared to .010-.026" for others. His recommended string height is .039-.063" on fret 12 (treble-to-bass), and .012-.02" at the first fret (again, treble-to-bass). Again, this is significantly lower than all the other 6 setup recommendations that I reviewed.

So I'm wondering if anyone has used Dale's specs and if so what their experiences have been. For my playing, I would say my attack on the strings is light to moderate - I'm not aggressive.

Any thoughts or good/bad experiences you can share would be great!

Thanks
Larry
Is Dale Erlewine any relation to the well-known guitar tech Dan Erlewine ?
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  #3  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:34 AM
Rodger Knox Rodger Knox is offline
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Dan has a cousin in Austin named Mark, who is also a very fine tech. (He's the one who maintains "Trigger".) I don't know about Dale, though.

Seriously, those action specs are pretty typical for electric guitars, but are on the low side for an acoustic. The fretwork has to be nearly perfect to get the action that low, Dan has a jig/fixture that allows fretwork to be done with the neck under tension. That's usually overkill IMO, but it may be necessary to get the action that low.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:39 AM
ChalkLitIScream ChalkLitIScream is offline
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Hmm that seems quite low and I really like low action.

I play with the flesh of my fingers and do soft fingerstyle songs and such.

The first fret action is exactly what I have right now. My relief is about 0.008'', but the 12th fret action on the E is a bit low. I go about .070.

Must be quite a comfy guitar to play!
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  #5  
Old 09-13-2018, 05:51 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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They are typical electric guitar specs not acoustic, acoustic needs more height.

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Old 09-14-2018, 12:42 PM
Ben-Had Ben-Had is offline
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That is aggressive on the action numbers but on the !st fret those are typical for my setups on acoustics.

Light to moderate players (treble to bass): 4/64; 5/64

Mod to Strong: 5/64; 6/64

Strong to Bluegrass: 6/64; 7/64
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:38 AM
BillRomansky BillRomansky is offline
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I always set up by eye, as each guitar is different. First, I get just a bit of relief, then I rough the saddle height, then on the nut I look at the nut string height, press that string down on the first fret and see the clearance on the second fret, giving just a tad more height on nut that clearance if the second fret. Then back to finalize saddle height, tweaking the adjusting rod a couple times along the way. While I’m at it, I look for high frets and tap individual frets down with a hammer or, if several frets are involved, will dress and crown frets.
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Old 09-15-2018, 04:49 AM
terryj47 terryj47 is offline
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I agree with most of the specs being too low for an acoustic-- at least for most players. The exception being the first fret action. I have a Yamaha AC1R that I went too deep on the high e and B strings. I raised the nut by shimming it and re-cut the slots-- more carefully. I set the slot depth so when the string was plucked lightly, an .008" feeler gauge placed under it would just "kiss" it. Plays nicely and intonation is good. A common problem with new guitars at the first fret or two. G chord 3rd fret D note on B string is really offensive if the nut slights are not deep enough. Also E maj chord G# on G string. YMMV.
I like a few though relief and 6/64 low E, 5/64 high e at the 12th fret.
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:36 AM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillRomansky View Post
I always set up by eye, as each guitar is different. First, I get just a bit of relief, then I rough the saddle height, then on the nut I look at the nut string height, press that string down on the first fret and see the clearance on the second fret, giving just a tad more height on nut that clearance if the second fret. Then back to finalize saddle height, tweaking the adjusting rod a couple times along the way. While I’m at it, I look for high frets and tap individual frets down with a hammer or, if several frets are involved, will dress and crown frets.
I was going to write a lengthy critique of what you wrote there, but decided life was too short.

I will however mention in passing that the component which adjusts the relief is normally referred to as a "truss-rod".
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Old 09-15-2018, 10:21 PM
bausin bausin is offline
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>> ... I look at the nut string height, press that string down on the first fret and see the clearance on the second fret ...

Do you have those fret numbers reversed?
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:07 AM
lar lar is offline
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I rechecked Dan’s book (Dan not Dale) and he labels them as ‘Flatop Acoustic’ specs (which is what I want). I also viewed the entire video accompanying the book – there was no further explanations. So I’m positive I didn’t misinterpret the book. But from the comments above I will be more generous with the 12th fret action.

I spent last night measuring:

My relief is zero (completely flat).

My action at the 12th fret (no capos or fretting) is: high pitch e= 0.097, .115, .111, .115, .119, .123 (low pitch E). Measured using digital calipers - thus 3 decimal places.

My height above the 1st fret (no capos or fretting is): .023, .027, .031, .031, .027, .038 (low pitch E). Not easy to measure accurately since the numbers are so small.

1) I will adjust the relief to .008-.01”.

2) Recheck the 1st fret heights with and without a capo in front of the 2nd fret. Right now the height above 1st fret when capoed is near zero (as desired). But with added relief I expect that will increase, allowing me to lower the nut slot depths. (maybe this is why relief is beneficial? It allows lower string height at the nut?). Goal will be Dan’s .012-.02”.

3) Adjust the action to .08-.09” which seems to be the consensus, or the average of it.

Bausin, I don't think the fret numbers are reversed. The lowest action is the high pitch e.

Thanks for the help.
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Old 09-18-2018, 01:03 PM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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Just make sure you are measuring from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string in each case. A digital (or other) caliper is a hard tool to use for that, it's just awkward if you are using the outside jaws, and highly subjective if you are using the depth measurement. Most people just use a machinist's ruler, since high accuracy is not really required.

The purpose of relief is to give the string vibration somewhere to go so the string can vibrate without hitting frets up the neck. People who play lightly don't need it, people who hit the string hard need a lot. It has very little to do with action at the nut. I play lightly and never strum hard, so I set my relief to close to zero, I don't even measure, I just look for a very little amount.

You can certainly measure the string height over the first fret pretty accurately with feeler gauges, but again extreme accuracy is not required. What I do is fret at the third fret, and look to see if the string is hitting the first fret, or if there is a lot of space. I want there to be a tiny amount of space over the first fret, just enough to say there is some, and just a tad higher for the lower strings. You can pick the string between the nut and the second fret (while fretting, maybe with a capo, at the third fret) and listen to see if it is hitting the first fret, or if you get a higher note when you fret at the second fret. If you do this, you don't need to measure but you'll end up with around the same as Dan recommends.

I set all my guitars to 12th fret action of 1/16" high E and 3/32" low E. I measure by eye against a machinist's ruler. I just set the ruler on the fret and look sideways at the string, and look for the bottom of the string to be in line with the line engraved on the ruler. You can buy a fancy ruler from Stew-Mac that does the same thing, but fancy.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:48 PM
bausin bausin is offline
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>> The purpose of relief is to give the string vibration somewhere to go so the string can vibrate without hitting frets up the neck. People who play lightly don't need it, people who hit the string hard need a lot.

I've never understood this reasoning. The saddle is 1/8" or so above the fret plane to give the strings room to vibrate.

You don't set the action with the truss rod.
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  #14  
Old 09-18-2018, 06:10 PM
mirwa mirwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bausin View Post
>> The purpose of relief is to give the string vibration somewhere to go so the string can vibrate without hitting frets up the neck.......................................
I've never understood this reasoning. The saddle is 1/8" or so above the fret plane to give the strings room to vibrate.
I will give my two cents, we have relief and action height.

Action height is to allow a string to vibrate cleanly.
- example a string like the base string E is tuned to 82.41Hz, so this means along that open string length a wave form exists that has 82.41 peaks per second, those peaks need a minimum height clearance to stop buzzing against frets, when you finger the 12th fret you now have 164.82 peaks per second over a shorter distance.

Relief is to accommodate a players style
- example a player that hits their string hard, puts a lot of side ways energy into the string we call this the major axis, that string now has elliptical decay pattern and also has a waveform from the initial note being played, as the energy is imparted into the string, the minor axis, the axis between the string and frets needs to be increased to accommodate for this elliptical orbit of the string, which is why relief is so dependant on the player.

Add into all the above an acoustic guitar has a moving top which is working like a drum moving the bridge up and down

All in laymans terms, hopefully that made it easier to differentiate between the two.

Now, sit back and wait for the Grammar / Spelling Police.

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Last edited by mirwa; 09-18-2018 at 06:41 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-18-2018, 07:08 PM
lar lar is offline
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I have very little fret-to-string gap at the first fret when fretting the 2nd fret.

But my unfretted first fret gap is a lot larger than what is recommended (recommended .012-.02, mine .023-.038).

Given this contradiction, should I just leave the nut alone? Or should I add relief and recheck (easy to do) - with the hope that the relief will give me more first fret clearance so I can lower the nut slots? From my research, even a couple thou high on the nut slots can make bar chords on the first fret significantly more difficult - and mine are at least 10 thou high.
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