Semantics Question

[Inyo]

Originally Posted by Cabarone

When talking about, say a 000-18 which is proper: "Triple zero", "Triple O" or "Triple aught"?

In a word: Yes.

[DukeX]

I say triple aught because that's what Martin calls them.

From 2010 thread linked below:

Originally Posted by brianmay

Well funny you should ask. I wrote to Martin to ask (since I'd just bought a triple 'oh' or was it triple zero). The result is below:

"No more misery! The correct nomenclature is 000 three zeroes (triple
aught)"...

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=182835

https://www.maurysmusic.com/todd_s_m..._guitar_review

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by generalliamsayn

It comes from firearm terminology, as in '00' buckshot (for a shotgun) is called double-aught.

oh, it would wouldn't it!!

[The Watchman]

I've only heard triple-oh around here.

[frankmcr]

"aught" is archaic British English for "anything", and as far as I've ever seen archaic US English for "nothing". As far as I know, these days it's dialectical rather than standard in both varieties.

It was standard once though, I could swear I've seen it in Shakespeare but can't remember where. Here it is in Milton's Paradise Regained, though:

But, if there be in glory aught of good,
It may by means far different be attained;
Without ambition, war, or violence--
By deeds of peace, by wisdom eminent,
By patience, temperance.

Guitar models? I've only heard "triple oh" but usually I see 000 rather than OOO.

[Birchtop]

Originally Posted by blindboyjimi

Aught comes from naught, meaning nothing or zero. I, too, thought it was British, but the dictionary says it's early North American. Anyway, I say, triple Oh, but type it zero, zero, zero.

.....

First time I heard “aught” was when I was kid in reference to the 30-06 caliber rifle (pronounced, thirty-aught-six). .30 = caliber, and 1906 was the year that the cartridge was introduced. Aught was slang for the 0 years (1901-1909) back then, kind like how we say, “back in ‘05” (2005) nowadays.

The Martin dealer in town, will say double or triple aught when referring to the 00- or 000- models

[darkcloud]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Correctly I guess it should be triple zero, but every says "O" (oh) e.g : Size O, OO and OOO as Martin developed the size 2, then sixe "1" (effectively the "standard," but rarely seen. Then the "0" (concert), "00" (grand concert), and the 000 (auditorium)

I've heard this "aught" word used somewhere - maybe it is an Americanism (?) as I've not heard it used in the UK.

Nobody (few) uses the term “aught” anymore that I’m aware of. More common in the earlier 20th century.

[jazzizm]

I‘ve heard „treble-oh“ too.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by darkcloud

Nobody (few) uses the term “aught” anymore that I’m aware of. More common in the earlier 20th century.

Every craftsperson that I know of affiliated with musical instrument construction and general woodworking or cabinetmaking refers to steel wool grades a "3 aught", "4 aught", etc.

I've often conversed with other guitar players who don't throw any shade when you refer to a "double or triple aught" guitar.

[PapaC]

Language is fascinating, and many, many, many slangs and dialects exist. Bottom line is it’s usually the area you grew up, or live in for many years that dictates your choice, style, and pronunciation.

I love to listen and talk with folks from other parts of the US, or world and hear their differences.

As to the “0” as in zero, it seems to me it depends on whether it’s by itself or not. Example:
How many Martin guitars do I own? Answer: zero. But if I’m using a number such as 101, I say one-oh-one. That’s how we say it here and now, so for me it would be pronounced “double/triple Oh”.

Even if we’re talking about an 0-28 it would still be “Oh twenty eight” because the 28 is with it. Now if there was such a guitar as a 0, just a zero, that’s how it would be pronounced.

Anyway just my thoughts. This and $5 will get you you a coffee at Starbucks

Lastly, I kinda like “aught” because my dad (now passed), used it a lot, as in “back in aught three”.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Every craftsperson that I know of affiliated with musical instrument construction and general woodworking or cabinetmaking refers to steel wool grades a "3 aught", "4 aught", etc.

I've often conversed with other guitar players who don't throw any shade when you refer to a "double or triple aught" guitar.

I did pull up a Youtube interview with Martin historian Dick Boak and he referred to a guitar he held up as a "triple oh". That's about as close to the horse's mouth as you're gonna get.

[6 Strings MI]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Funny, when I've seen or heard Americans use the term ''triple aught'', I thought they were trying to sound British!

I've heard British motoring journalists talk about a car's "naught to 60" time, something you'd rarely hear from an American.

Originally Posted by PapaC

I love to listen and talk with folks from other parts of the US, or world and hear their differences.

I kinda like “aught” because my dad (now passed), used it a lot, as in “back in aught three”.

The difference in vernacular was quite apparent when I relocated from California (where I spent most of my life) to Michigan. A former co-worker once offered to buy me a soda...if I referred to it as "pop." I extended him the same offer, if he called it a soda. Neither of us bought the other a beverage.

I use "aught" as well, perhaps as a result of growing up around firearms. And if Martin's preferred pronunciation is "triple-aught," then that is what I shall say.

This topic sort of reminds me of Porsche...someone within that company's ranks decided a video should be made to instruct people how to properly pronounce its name.

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I've heard this "aught" word used somewhere - maybe it is an Americanism (?) as I've not heard it used in the UK.

According to the (ahem) Oxford English Dictionary, the term is regional. The OED cites a quote from 1822: "It was said..that all Cambridge scholars call the cipher aught and all Oxford scholars call it nought."

In American gun culture, the .30-06 Springfield cartridge is commonly called a "thirty aught six."

I refer to my 000-15m as a "triple-aught fifteen."

[GCWaters]

[Wade Hampton]

Andy wrote:

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Correctly I guess it should be triple zero, but every says "O" (oh) e.g : Size O, OO and OOO as Martin developed the size 2, then sixe "1" (effectively the "standard," but rarely seen. Then the "0" (concert), "00" (grand concert), and the 000 (auditorium)

I've heard this "aught" word used somewhere - maybe it is an Americanism (?) as I've not heard it used in the UK.

Andy, the vast majority of North American Martin guitar buffs that I've met refer to these guitars as "Triple Oh's," as I do myself. However, within the Martin Guitar Company itself, their corporate culture is such that if you ask one of them, they'll call that body size a "Triple Aught."

So I've heard both. Ever since I played a 1939 Martin 000-28 back during my college days, I've been a serious fan of this body design, and so I ask about them when I meet vintage instrument dealers:

"Got any Triple O's I can look at?"

"Yeah, I've got a nice '62 Triple Aught 28 right here..."

Or whatever. So sometimes when you talk to Martin field reps or vintage dealers if you ask about Triple O's they won't correct you, but will answer you by referring to Triple Aughts.

So you might say many of us are "bilingual" when it comes to these words...

As for the word "aught" itself, where I've heard it the most has been in reference to the first decade of the 20th Century, when some old timer has said: "Yeah, back in nineteen aught nine" to mean 1909, and to this day in firearms nomenclature.

The actual usage of "aught" in talking about specific years has declined steeply. I'd occasionally hear it from elderly people when I was a small child in the late '50's and early '60's, and I think my father must have heard it a LOT when he was young because one of his standard catch phrases was:

"That's not how we did it back in aught six."

That wasn't uttered in admiration, but when he was mildly disgusted with someone for clinging to obsolete methods or outmoded thinking.*

As has already been mentioned, the one area within American society where the use of the word "aught" is still firmly ensconced is the designation of firearm ammunition and chamberings. I've never heard anyone refer to the common deer hunting caliber 30.06 as "Thirty O Six" - it's invariably and universally referred to as "Thirty Aught Six." The same thing applies to the shotgun load that contains a dozen .30 caliber balls: nobody says "Double O Buckshot," but always says "Double Aught Buckshot" instead.

I know I've heard lyrics to country songs that refer to "Double Aught Buckshot;" not only does that contain a nice internal rhyme, it also conveys an implied menace in a succinct and instantly understandable way.

Maybe you've heard one or two of those songs yourself.

So, short version: most American and Canadian guitarists refer to Martin's midsize body shape as a "Triple O" and its smaller buddy as a "Double O," but Martin employees and some vintage instrument dealers & collectors still use "Triple Aught" and "Double Aught," the latter folks perhaps to signal their insider knowledge and status.

But "Triple Aught" is exceedingly rare among most musicians.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller



*Dad's other phrases along these lines were: "There are three ways of doing things: the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way;" and "That's not how we did it in the brown shoe Army," which is a passing reference to the brown leather footwear issued in the peacetime US Army before we got into WWII and the issue shoe and boot leather got changed to black. Again, he used these expressions to convey his annoyance at backward, hidebound thinking.