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  #46  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:25 AM
ManyMartinMan ManyMartinMan is offline
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Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
.....That is why a factory guitar is akin to a cookie cut by a cookie cutter it is not pejorative to describe it as such because that is what it is. This is also why the factory can replicate the design reliably but the factory cannot replicate tonally excellent guitars made according to that design with reliability -...
Interestingly, the cookie cutter design is how Martin has made world-desired, world-class, top-pro played guitars for longer than most family histories have existed in this country (USA).

Additionally while I don't remember if it's Olson or Ryan, one of them builds all their necks, then all their bodies, does mass assembly, has them finished and then all ready for delivery at the same time - once a year. That's as cookie-cutter as I can think of. Of course, as you pointed out, it's not pejorative or derogatory - just the facts. And great cookie-cutter guitar building.
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  #47  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:30 AM
Slothead56 Slothead56 is offline
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I don’t know one way or another but on any given day AGF Classified ads seem to have a disproportionate amount of Custom and “Luthier” built guitars than the total of Martin, Gibson and Taylor. Does that say something?

BTW-I didn’t read all 4 pages so if this point has been made already, apologies.
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  #48  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:32 AM
Jaden Jaden is offline
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If you read up on Somogyi, when he entered the world of steel string guitar construction he was one of the first; the history of the steel string guitar originates with manufacturers, not luthier build. Just saying.
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  #49  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:57 AM
rpguitar rpguitar is offline
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I see your point, @gitarro. No argument there, and thank you for clarifying.

I guess it boils down to whether the very specific tuning that you refer to, on a per-instrument basis using the set of wood designated for each guitar, produces so much value above and beyond a standard guitar to make it worthwhile.

It will always be worthwhile for someone, hence there is certainly a market for this type of build. But for many others, the time and money might be better spent on lessons or at least practice.

The builds I've commissioned were for specific features and ergonomics primarily, although there were at least 2 where I was seeking a particular sound and/or applicability to a musical style. I can say that one of the two succeeded while the other did not. So I have a hit rate of only 50% which helps explain my skepticism.
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  #50  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:08 PM
srbell srbell is offline
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Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
You can buy a used luthier made guitar or buy a new one on sale by a shop or by the luthier himself or herself then because you have the chance of trying them before buying them.
I'd have no problem with buying one I could play first, but would never do a commissioned build.
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  #51  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:04 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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It is of course possible for a given martin or Taylor guitar to sound as good as the better luthier made guitars but the vast majority of their production would be merely average or satisfactory because again they are a factory and they are not optimising for tone at all in their processes. So for all their history Martin has the same tonal issues as any other factory. But no doubt they build a high quality product and has succeeded in marketing that product successfully for 150 years to such a degree that many people desire a martin because it was played by their musical heroes etc.

I dont know enough of Ryan's building methodology to comment but you are right in that Olson uses batch building, CNC for the necks and for other easily reproducible parts, and a very extensive jig collection to build more guitars than any othe solo luthier at any one time.

However IMHO what makes for a "cookie cutter" or factory guitar isnt using such techniques. It is the whether there is individualised attention to optimising the tone of each guitar vis a cis the variable nature of the woods used. Probably no luthiers use such techniques to such a degree as olson but most luthiers use jigs and batch building for example. Some use cnc for the necks and bridges also.

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Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan View Post
Interestingly, the cookie cutter design is how Martin has made world-desired, world-class, top-pro played guitars for longer than most family histories have existed in this country (USA).

Additionally while I don't remember if it's Olson or Ryan, one of them builds all their necks, then all their bodies, does mass assembly, has them finished and then all ready for delivery at the same time - once a year. That's as cookie-cutter as I can think of. Of course, as you pointed out, it's not pejorative or derogatory - just the facts. And great cookie-cutter guitar building.
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Last edited by gitarro; 10-10-2019 at 07:42 PM.
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  #52  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:15 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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The success of the effort is very subjective. There are people who would prefer a Big Mac happy meal to a custom dinner prepared individually by a visiting star chef at the nicest French restaurant in town. Does that negate the mass manufacture approach of a fast food restaurant that uses industrially prepared sauces and mash and liquefied meats to the latter?

As I said previously the success of whether he luthier made guitar hits the mark depends highly on the skill of the luthier but even the most skilful luthiers have off days or when they are using a particular wood they are not familiar with or experimenting with a new technique or things just did not go well in that build. I have played 4 guitars of one very famous luthier and one was absolutely stellar and world class in every way, two were excellent but one was poor.

Whether it is worth it or not to go the custom route is also a subjective question but let me put it this way - if the big mac were not as cheap as it is, but if the big mac costs half or 2/3 or even almost as much as the fine dining french restaurant meal that was prepared by a chef - would anyone still think the big mac is a great deal?

Factory guitars made by martin and taylor are not that much cheaper than many luthier made guitars...but the factory guitar was made with anywhere from 6 to 12 man hours of labour as compared to a typical luthier made guitar that required more than 10 times as much man hours from the luthier. But you pay almost as much or sometimes more for the factory guitar than the luthier made guitar...

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Originally Posted by rpguitar View Post
I see your point, @gitarro. No argument there, and thank you for clarifying.

I guess it boils down to whether the very specific tuning that you refer to, on a per-instrument basis using the set of wood designated for each guitar, produces so much value above and beyond a standard guitar to make it worthwhile.

It will always be worthwhile for someone, hence there is certainly a market for this type of build. But for many others, the time and money might be better spent on lessons or at least practice.

The builds I've commissioned were for specific features and ergonomics primarily, although there were at least 2 where I was seeking a particular sound and/or applicability to a musical style. I can say that one of the two succeeded while the other did not. So I have a hit rate of only 50% which helps explain my skepticism.
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Last edited by gitarro; 10-10-2019 at 07:52 PM.
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  #53  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:17 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Sorry double post
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Last edited by gitarro; 10-10-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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  #54  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:20 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Originally Posted by srbell View Post
I'd have no problem with buying one I could play first, but would never do a commissioned build.
In that case you wouldn't want to commission from the custom shop of a factory manufacturer then or special order a factory guitar because the chances of you getting a good guitar tonally speaking is purely a matter of random chance!
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  #55  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:24 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Sorry double post
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  #56  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:33 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
If you read up on Somogyi, when he entered the world of steel string guitar construction he was one of the first; the history of the steel string guitar originates with manufacturers, not luthier build. Just saying.
Of course steel string guitars were invented by a manufacturer doing it in the factory approach. I am not sure how this is relevant though...
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  #57  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:38 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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If you go to UMGF buy and sell forum the proportion of luthier made guitars ought to go down very significantly.

AGF is basically the only guitar forum I am aware of that has survived from earlier years which caters to fans of luthier made acoustic guitars especially those that are not built in the vintage vein. Hence the agf buy and sell subforum is probably the best forum to advertise a sale of such a guitar on the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slothead56 View Post
I don’t know one way or another but on any given day AGF Classified ads seem to have a disproportionate amount of Custom and “Luthier” built guitars than the total of Martin, Gibson and Taylor. Does that say something?

BTW-I didn’t read all 4 pages so if this point has been made already, apologies.
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  #58  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:19 PM
srbell srbell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
In that case you wouldn't want to commission from the custom shop of a factory manufacturer then or special order a factory guitar because the chances of you getting a good guitar tonally speaking is purely a matter of random chance!
You're correct, I wouldn't do it.
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  #59  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:39 PM
s2y s2y is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
In that case you wouldn't want to commission from the custom shop of a factory manufacturer then or special order a factory guitar because the chances of you getting a good guitar tonally speaking is purely a matter of random chance!
They wouldn't stay in business if getting a good guitar was a matter of random chance.
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  #60  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:17 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Originally Posted by s2y View Post
They wouldn't stay in business if getting a good guitar was a matter of random chance.
There are many customers who want different things from their guitars and ther are many differing levels of discernment among guitar buyers. The factory manfacturr knows that even though the vast majority of the guitars produced on any given day are not tonally exceptional tonally, most of them will appeal to somebody out there. Not everyone is looking for or is aware of or even needs a better unplugged tone. Some just want to play a guitar to sound more like their guitar hero. Others play predominantly through an amp and pickups. Thanks to the Bell curve the number of tonal lemons will be relatively smaller so the number of absolute tonal dudes will usually be fairly small compared to total production.

However if you want a tonally exceptional factory guitar, you will have to search through the racks to find it. I had a guitar teacher who had a very nice and open sounding factory guitar of a fairly well-known brand that is used by many professional musicians and he told me he had found it after visiting a distributor and playing through virtually their entire inventory of that brand of guitars.
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