Mic pair for zoom h5 - akg c 451 b + another?

[ChuckS]

Based on your recent recording efforts I think you'll be pleased being able to use a variety of micing techniques with external mics. I like to use the A-B spaced pair arrangement. Quite some time ago a tried using a sdc along with a different 2nd mic, but for the most part I use 2 mics of the same model. I think it will all depend on the sound you like to capture.

A word of caution. Some mics draw significantly more current from the preamps phantom supply. This isn't typically an issue, but as an example my son's friend brought over an AKG 414 (XLS?) and it wouldn't work with my son's Focusrite 2i4 audio interface. If you select a mic that draws 2-4mA you shouldn't have to be concerned about it, but I don't know how much current your H5 phantom power will supply. The phantom power standard specifies up to 14mA; most mics don't draw anywhere near that and some preamps can't supply that much.

The Oktava MK-012 mics are very reasonably priced and quite available used. The Line Audio CM3 mics are extremely well priced but not very available used (they are wide cardioid polar pattern which is fine for spaced pair arrangement but won't reject room sound as well as cardioid or super-cardioid pattern, and their noise spec isn't as good as a lot of mics so this could be a factor for quiet instruments like guitars played fingerstyle).

I'd suggest your ideal solution might be to look for a second AKG C451 B.

[sdelsolray]

The AKG 451B is an excellent mic. Although I have never owned a pair, I did have a set for about one month. It is a quality mic, well built, with excellent detail and clarity. It is also quite linear in behavior. Off-axis response is quite good too. Leaving aside proximity effect, the 75Hz bass rolloff switch is lined up nicely for recording an acoustic guitar in standard tuning, is OK for use with a dropped-D tunings, but problematic for dropped-C tunings.

Two issues arise with this mic. First, its self noise, although acceptable, is a bit high. Secondly, the HF lift of 4dB, although not harsh, can be annoying, particularly with close micing. Of course, the HF lift can be reduced when mixing with any parametric eq plugin, and, doing that lowers the perceived noise level a bit.

[Vindellama]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Based on your recent recording efforts I think you'll be pleased being able to use a variety of micing techniques with external mics. I like to use the A-B spaced pair arrangement. Quite some time ago a tried using a sdc along with a different 2nd mic, but for the most part I use 2 mics of the same model. I think it will all depend on the sound you like to capture.

A word of caution. Some mics draw significantly more current from the preamps phantom supply. This isn't typically an issue, but as an example my son's friend brought over an AKG 414 (XLS?) and it wouldn't work with my son's Focusrite 2i4 audio interface. If you select a mic that draws 2-4mA you shouldn't have to be concerned about it, but I don't know how much current your H5 phantom power will supply. The phantom power standard specifies up to 14mA; most mics don't draw anywhere near that and some preamps can't supply that much.

The Oktava MK-012 mics are very reasonably priced and quite available used. The Line Audio CM3 mics are extremely well priced but not very available used (they are wide cardioid polar pattern which is fine for spaced pair arrangement but won't reject room sound as well as cardioid or super-cardioid pattern, and their noise spec isn't as good as a lot of mics so this could be a factor for quiet instruments like guitars played fingerstyle).

I'd suggest your ideal solution might be to look for a second AKG C451 B.

I'm going to research the specs of the H5 and the mic to be sure.
It may take a while before I'm able to get another one due to the lack of supply on the used side of things. That's why I was thinking about the 214 (that's if it can be used in spaced pair with the 451), there are loads of used ones for sale in my country.

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

The AKG 451B is an excellent mic. Although I have never owned a pair, I did have a set for about one month. It is a quality mic, well built, with excellent detail and clarity. It is also quite linear in behavior. Off-axis response is quite good too. Leaving aside proximity effect, the 75Hz bass rolloff switch is lined up nicely for recording an acoustic guitar in standard tuning, is OK for use with a dropped-D tunings, but problematic for dropped-C tunings.

Two issues arise with this mic. First, its self noise, although acceptable, is a bit high. Secondly, the HF lift of 4dB, although not harsh, can be annoying, particularly with close micing. Of course, the HF lift can be reduced when mixing with any parametric eq plugin, and, doing that lowers the perceived noise level a bit.

How problematic on open C is it? Would a sm81 or akg 214 or an at2020 (the most available options) help in open C when used with the 451?

[ChuckS]

While you're searching for a second external mic there's lots of experimenting you could be doing. You could do spaced pair recording using your new AKG sdc as one mic and the H5 for the other spaced pair mic. You'll have to do multitrack recording to record the internal and external mics at the same time. You can point one of the H5 external mics at your guitar (for one of the spaced pairs). In stereo mix down send the AKG to one side (I.e. Hard left), the H5 mic pointed at the guitar to the other side (i.e. hard right), and don't mix in the other H5 mic. This way you can get some experience in spaced pair technique and also see how you like the AKG.

[Vindellama]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

While you're searching for a second external mic there's lots of experimenting you could be doing. You could do spaced pair recording using your new AKG sdc as one mic and the H5 for the other spaced pair mic. You'll have to do multitrack recording to record the internal and external mics at the same time. You can point one of the H5 external mics at your guitar (for one of the spaced pairs). In stereo mix down send the AKG to one side (I.e. Hard left), the H5 mic pointed at the guitar to the other side (i.e. hard right), and don't mix in the other H5 mic. This way you can get some experience in spaced pair technique and also see how you like the AKG.

That's a good idea.
Could you also fake a mid side recording by recording split mono? With the akg over the h5.
Then in the daw pan hard left/right the input from the capsule and leave the akg centered.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Vindellama

That's a good idea.
Could you also fake a mid side recording by recording split mono? With the akg over the h5.
Then in the daw pan hard left/right the input from the capsule and leave the akg centered.

That would not give you the sound or capability of mid-side recording; you need a figure 8 mic for it.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Vindellama

...
How problematic on open C is it? Would a sm81 or akg 214 or an at2020 (the most available options) help in open C when used with the 451?

I suggest your go to the manufacturer's websites and download each mic's frequency response graph and review them.

Without use of the bass rolloff switch on the 451B, low C tunings will not be a problem at all, but when using the switch (at 75Hz) there is a -10dB drop at low C. Again, this does not take into account any proximity effect which may or may not be present (which depends on mic placement).

[Doug Young]

That would be completely different from mid-side, but you can certainly have a stereo pair and a single centered mic. More useful with spaced pairs, where there can be a "hole in the middle" than with XY. But there are all kinds of options with 3 mics. Put the single mic very close, move the XY back in the room to get a more ambient effect, or vice versa. Or just place them in various places and mix to taste. Using more than 2 mics, or non-standard positions can lead to a morass of phase issues, but it's something to experiment with if you're up for it.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Using more than 2 mics, or non-standard positions can lead to a morass of phase issues, but it's something to experiment with if you're up for it.

Even using just two mics can give you phase issues, and I've got the failed experiments to prove it. :-)

But with a single mic in a good spot plus a spaced pair at least several feet further back, it's very unlikely that you'll encounter phase issues. By "spaced pair" I mean a foot to 18" apart and angled out a bit.

This is something that's bulletproof enough that you can feel fairly confident about running-and-gunning and getting something non-disastrous even if you have no opportunity to listen critically to any of it until you get it home.

[Vindellama]

Hi!
The used 451 just arrived (still haven't decided which mic to use as a pair).
I tried a quick snippet, but the mic stands haven't arrived yet to do a proper test.
I turned the stereo capsule into mono for a "better" comparison.
And tried to push the EQ to see which one would keep more of the detail and reveal less noise and such.
From the quick first impression, the akg does seems to capture more detail, specially in the high end. So you can push the eq more (less noise, more off-axis rejection, etc). I think I pushed a bit to far in this one.
I'll do more tests once the stand arrive, finding the best position and try to use the multi-track with the zoom capsule + akg for a spaced pair and x/y 451+h5 vs h5 stereo comparison.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d32rvzcr56...psule.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k1fxq5w6mp...82%29.wav?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7wvlpe3wz...c451b.wav?dl=0

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Vindellama

Hi!
.....[snip]...I turned the stereo capsule into mono for a "better" comparison. ....[snip]......

I haven't worked with the Zoom H5, but when you said 'turned the stereo capsule into mono' it made me wonder if you set it up to get (1) two mono tracks, one for each capsule OR (2) a mono track that combined the output of the two capsules.

If you are attempting to do a spaced pair setup using your new AKG as one mic and one of H5 capsules as the other mic I would recommend not doing (2) above.

[Vindellama]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I haven't worked with the Zoom H5, but when you said 'turned the stereo capsule into mono' it made me wonder if you set it up to get (1) two mono tracks, one for each capsule OR (2) a mono track that combined the output of the two capsules.

If you are attempting to do a spaced pair setup using your new AKG as one mic and one of H5 capsules as the other mic I would recommend not doing (2) above.

I've done (2), haven't thought of aiming one of the mics in the same position using the multi-track.
I'll use the multi track when trying to combine both.

[Doug Young]

I'd avoid summing a stereo pair to mono. Although the XY setup on the zoom is your best candidate for that (XY is meant to be phase-coherent), summing two mics to mono almost always causes some phase cancelation, resulting in tonal changes. You can always load the stereo XY track into your DAW and just use one side of the stereo track - the easiest way would be to just pan the track to one side or the other. Then you could pan the 451 the opposite and have stereo with one Zoom and the 451.

The 451 sounds good, tho it seems to be quite a bit brighter, and really picks up the raspy high strings. I'm never sure what people mean when they say a mic has more "detail", I suspect it's that you're hearing more high frequencies. The Zoom mics sound a bit warmer to me, with less of that high end sizzle - tho that may be because you mixed the stereo pair to mono, which usually dulls the sound. Of these examples, I'd personally prefer the Zoom track, just because I like a warm guitar, but that depends on what you're going for. (No doubt the 451 is a better mic than the Zoom mics, of course)

[Vindellama]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'd avoid summing a stereo pair to mono. Although the XY setup on the zoom is your best candidate for that (XY is meant to be phase-coherent), summing two mics to mono almost always causes some phase cancelation, resulting in tonal changes. You can always load the stereo XY track into your DAW and just use one side of the stereo track - the easiest way would be to just pan the track to one side or the other. Then you could pan the 451 the opposite and have stereo with one Zoom and the 451.

The 451 sounds good, tho it seems to be quite a bit brighter, and really picks up the raspy high strings. I'm never sure what people mean when they say a mic has more "detail", I suspect it's that you're hearing more high frequencies. The Zoom mics sound a bit warmer to me, with less of that high end sizzle - tho that may be because you mixed the stereo pair to mono, which usually dulls the sound. Of these examples, I'd personally prefer the Zoom track, just because I like a warm guitar, but that depends on what you're going for. (No doubt the 451 is a better mic than the Zoom mics, of course)

I noticed that it is brighter (the 00 I used is also brighter than the L-00), but I also pushed the eq more in the high end trying to see when it would fall apart with noise and such. When I have the stands I'll change the tuning, try different positions and upload the raw track (but panned with the zoom capsule). And post on the multi-band thread. If it is still too bright I may try to buy a darker mic to pair with it instead of trying to get another 451.

[Doug Young]

You can always use EQ. I'd expect the 451 to sound right without much EQ at all - no need to pump up the high end. For that matter, I don't use much EQ with even the zoom mics. You can "EQ" with mic placement.