#16
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The whole thing of combining mics gets really "interesting". I always record stereo, but I have been using at least 2 pairs of mics, and lately have been experimenting with 3, so 6 mics total. That means I end up with this same issue that mics get combined, even tho my result is stereo. It gets tricky, and phase relationships can be a huge problem. I have a plugin that helps me micro-align tracks to avoid some of that, tho part of what you get when you mix two mics is phase cancellation, which can be bad or good - just depends on how it sounds. I like combining different kinds of mics, I'm usually combining a condenser and a ribbon, for exactly what I think you mean. You get the different colors of each mic. Sometimes it works. But I'd think the jump to stereo and some standard stereo micing techniques, would be a far bigger improvement than mixing two mics in mono. Of course, in the end, it's what works, there's no truly right or wrong in recording, only what sounds good and what doesn't, and that's largely up to you as long as you're happy with the sound.
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#17
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Providing a link to one or more of your recordings (preferably without reverb being added) would be informative.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#18
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Yes, the bottom line is how it sounds. A good way to check up on things is to collapse any two of the microphones dedicated to picking up a single source to the center. Any gross phase anomalies will be instantly and glaringly apparent. A coherent two mic/element array is arguably that with the fewest negative phase issues. The standard or classic arrays are well documented. In fact, photos of them are included in the link I posted earlier in this thread. Going to anything beyond a pair is getting into pretty deep water. Suffice to say that the old axiom "the right mic in the right place" is still the best guideline.
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#19
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There are all kinds of examples where people do mix multiple mics, even if it's just bleed from a vocal/guitar or drum mics. it's always a bit of an issue, but it can also be used advantageously. Here's an example of someone else in a studio session with more mics than I can count (and this resulted in a very nice sounding CD). I'd like to know how all these mics were used, no idea if they were actually mixed, or just used to choose between: And here's an example that's closer to the setup I've been using: I'm not really advocating the OP's goal here, tho. I wouldn't use 2 mics and blend to mono. Stereo would just be a better use of the 2 mics, for the sound I want to hear. In both these examples, the end result was stereo.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar Last edited by Doug Young; 12-02-2016 at 08:32 PM. |
#20
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Doug...
Thanks for the reply. I mostly do live recording, live broadcast and audio feeds for video, so there's really no post-. I have to get it right from the git-go or it's no-go.
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#21
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I'm sure that's a whole different ballgame. You just use one mic? Or one mic per source?
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#22
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It varies with the logistics, budget, time available and such. On some broadcast things I'm given splits from all house mics, usually no more than 32 channels.
Sometimes I'll bring my own splitters and take what I need from the house and add a few of my own "broadcast only" mics. Other jobs are a main M/S array with spot mics or something similar. Some of the cable access TV stuff requires me to do house sound and internet feed simultaneously with camera feeds. I'll run a couple of back-up safety recordings as well. Fun...and pretty good business.
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#23
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I have played around with a demo combination delay and phase shifter from Voxengo. It works well. Interface photo below:
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#24
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Yeah, my impression is that this plugin just automates that process, finding the best correlation. It takes about 30 seconds of sample to scan and compute.
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#25
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I just go by ear and don't use the automatic calculation. The phase shift plus the track delay is an interesting combo of things to play with. However sometimes I do imagine things - more than once I have made plug-in changes thinking I hear some subtle change only to look and find the plug-in was in bypass mode the whole time.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#26
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Glad I'm not the only one :-)
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#27
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Derek, et al...
Perfect or absolute phase correlation at all frequencies is an impossibility. The only scenario where phase coherency can be absolutely perfect is a single sine wave. The best you can do is to time align the zero point of all tracks. All your mics will then be at a virtually equal distance from the source. What it SOUNDS like after this is where we all make the judgement call, yea or nay. Any adjustments made need to be un-made and re-made for comparison. I assume this is what you're doing when you discover you've been working in bypass mode. Phase difference is a natural part of all sound. It's one of the factors our brain uses to locate the location of a sound source. Any excessive phase differences show up when collapsing two signals to mono. In broadcast it is standard to aim for mono compatability, most commonly done by creating a stereo matrix using a mid/side configuration of elements. Some of the posted pics of studio miking show mid/side arrangements. But you probably know all this. I post this to clarify for the casual reader that when you stated "perfectly in phase is going to be mono" it is not really correct. As I said, perfect phase alignment can occur only for a single sine wave. I can see how you'd call it "mono", but the "mono" is "mono" only in that it would be a single wave. Add a second frequency to the sound and all you can have is a consistent time relationship (phase difference) between the two waves, not a perfect correlation. Here's a video that's not too bad: https://youtu.be/Wv_RMhLu_So The first minute is just extraneous chatter. The rest is good and the visuals quite helpful. W
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. Last edited by Wyllys; 12-03-2016 at 03:28 AM. |
#28
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Also, is the 110 degree reverse ORTF orientation still essential in this configuration? 90 degrees would be a sort of X-Y, right? And then less then that would be moving towards a closely spaced pair setup if I'm thinking about this correctly.
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My YouTube Page: http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon 2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover 2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype) 2018 Maton EBG808TEC 2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar 2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany 1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce 2014 Rainsong OM1000N2 ....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment |
#29
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The idea being to identify the phase/time relationship with the least overall destructive interference equating the highest amount of cancellation from reversed polarity with the most desirable sonic result. I think this has been mentioned previously, being done manually to align the tracks. The plug-in just does it automatically, takes more samples for comparison and runs an analytic algorithm that doesn't suffer listening fatigue. Seems a likely useful tool. I'd bet that the more expensive ones do a bit better job, but even a simple one should at least give some insight. Of course, all this does is virtually re-position the mics. It is theoretically possible to have the mics in exactly the right place to produce tracks which need no further time-alignment. This is where the standard array techniques come into play. The plug-in will probably give relatively more improvement in tracks recorded with more randomly spaced mics because there's more "wrong" at the start. In re the question about using different, unmatched mics for an array: I'd say matched response will "line up" better. Any "sound" resulting from using different mics will be from the initial sound being "heard" differently. Such differences in frequency content due to mic polar sensitivity will be less amenable to post-production time alignment. Whether this is desirable or undesirable is a judgement call subject to what each individual prefers. Ain't physics fun?
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#30
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Like Wyllys, I do a lot of broadcast mixing where a phase screw-up will bite you in the butt. These days I monitor my mixes on a DK jellyfish meter and I love it. Unfortunately they are hideously expensive. But I got my start back nearly forty years ago when men were men and consoles weighed hundreds of pounds. Back then you got in the habit of punching the mono monitor button continuously to check for mono compatibility. We had a simple phase meter but the mono test was better. If it doesn't survive mono, you don't want it. Somewhere along the line it will give you fits. The easiest example of this is Paul Simon's "Mother and Child Reunion" where the guitar was split to two channels and one was reversed in phase to spread things. If you sum to mono the guitar disappears leaving nothing but its phase incoherent reverb in the mix. Bob
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