studio overhaul - two room treatment questions

[zenpicker]

I'm finally getting around to improving my recording space and am thinking room treatment thoughts. There is a wealth of info out there (starting with Ethan Winer) and I've spent hours wandering through the maze, but as always I find the rapid and knowledgeable advice here to be the quickest path to Done.

The challenge is to treat a relatively small room with two walls of windows (starting a yard off the floor) and a low ceiling. The floorplan is mostly rectangular, but with the walls cut in a few feet as you enter, and a side alcove to the right where my control desk is situated. I'm planning to do proper drawings, but that's the basic layout.

For further context, here are two examples of what I'm typically getting with my current room setup, minimally processed: Starwalk and The Girl at the Gate.

My two basic questions are:

1. Should the floor be carpeted, wood, or a big rug at the performance position over a wooden floor? It's carpeted now; I have assumed that this helps absorb any nasty reflections off the low ceiling, but it also deadens the guitar sound a bit. I think my recordings could use a little more high-end sparkle...I EQ it in, but a natural room is probably better. (No?)

2. I plan on putting some of Fran Guidry's home made traps above and slightly behind the performance chair, along the walls under the windows (which are in front and to the left of the chair), and on the ceiling above the window wall, tilting slightly down to intersect the upper edge of the windows. With this in mind:

- Are these the only ones, and the right ones, I need?

- Do I need bass traps too if it's just close-miked acoustic guitar?

I guess one fundamental question is whether you just acoustically kill any low-ceilinged room, on principle, or whether there's a way to retain some desirable room sounds.

I know these may be hard to answer without a careful map of the room or a site visit, but I'm curious about any rules of thumb people might have.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!!

Edward

[ljguitar]

Hi Edward...

I am just curious, have you ever attempted to record in your lower living room? I'd be tempted to situate myself in the middle of it and give it a go sometime.

I found when I had a studio that pulling the carpet and then treating walls produced far better sound than carpets on the floor. The bass was ramping up and I had an ugly bump in the low/mid that disappeared after the carpets went away and we returned to the concrete floor {with a rug under the players feet to keep noise out of mics).

I've seen your room, and heard your recordings...and you are making great recordings. Not saying things cannot be tweaked.

[zenpicker]

Thanks, Larry - good guidance on the carpeting. That's the kind of info I'm looking for.

I'm not 100% negative on the finished recording sound, I just think it needs a little more transparency and sparkle. Of course there are a bajillion other contributing factors, but at this point my mikes and signal chain aren't bad, so I'm looking to the room. I want to redo the room anyway just to make it a more pleasing place to spend time, so while I'm at it I want to make any improvements I can to the acoustics. Hence my quest....

I just did a quick floorplan of the current room which I'll add to this thread now.

Thanks again!
E

[zenpicker]

Just took some measurements and did a rough and ready floor plan. Here it is.

As noted, I plan to remove one of the closets to make the control desk area more spacious. Have thought about adding a window-wall to enclose or partially enclose that area, mostly to screen off computer noise which is minimal (iMac) but occasionally an issue. But that creates another hard surface.... Right now I use a 4' Auralex gobo to shield for noise.

Thoughts welcome!

[zenpicker]

Larry, I neglected to answer your question about recording in the living room. Never tried it. Now that I have mike positions figured out and all my gear centralized I'm not so portable....

[alohachris]

Aloha Zenpicker,

It's great that you've taken the time to research & understand the importance of Room Treatment of our tracking & mixing spaces to the quality of our acoustic recordings.

Isn't Ethan Winer's treatment "bible" fantastic? I also like the stories & studio pictures over at Gearslutz "Studio Building & Treatment" forum.

But here are some quick-&-dirty suggestions that may help you with conceptualizing your treatment & tricks about how to do it .

First, leave the floor uncarpeted. If anyone here has a carpeted floor in their space, just get some 4'x4' 1/4" finish plywood to put over it in your tracking space while tracking. Some reflection is good.

SPL Meter your space to see where the refection issues are (Radio Shack).

RE: Fran's Great DIY Portable Broadband Absorbers. They work great. I made 22 of them for my former space which had floor-ceiling glass on three sides & a very high ceiling. It controlled it perfectly. You can place them where you need them, even adding some space in between if you want to experiment & allow more room in.

If I were you, I'd make about 10 of those 4"x2'x4' beauties. Easy to do. All of the basic materials you need- including more attractive White Burlap covering material - is available at Walmart.

OC 703 FRK 2"x2'x4' hard-foam insulation panels can be found at Acoustic Material suppliers. You don't really need the more expensive 705. I bought half regular & half FRK (foil covered 1-side) panels & glued them together. The FRK faces face out - better for your corner bass traps.

Place two in behind the mic's, two behind you & two at each side - plus a couple over your tracking area. That will control your space, Zen - a room-within-a-room approach.

Note: to keep them from falling over, use wire or wire hangers & just jam them into two absorbers. They'll hold fine as long as they are butted up against each other. That's a good little trick.

I also treated the entire room too, filling the corners w/ OC 703 absorber panels as bass traps & also the ceiling to wall corners as well.

Suggestion: To control the reflecting mid's, I hung double layers of mover's blankets in front of the windows & any other reflective surface - like TV's or big pictures. Despite what Ethan says, those can really help control mid-range reflections when combined w/ the broadband absorbers.

Go to a moving co. Ask them for used mover's blankets. Should be free. Wash them. Hammer in 1/2" grommets along one folded edge for hanging. Hang a layer 4" off the Windows (at least) & another layer 4" out from that if can. Airspace is good in treatment.

That will give you the room treatment you need, Zen. Simple, easy to make, affordable (saves thousand$), flexible (try making a vocal booth out of stacked absorbers), & portable. You can use the room for other activities because you can store absorbers & blankets out of the way.

That worked great for me. Start w/ 6-10 broad-band absorbers for that glass-y space, Zen, & around 10 blankets.

For controlling computer fan noise, my iMac is not very noisy, but my Glyph storage external HD's were. So I made some boxes out of 1/2" Homasote (440 Soundboard) which you can find everywhere.

It's recycled, engineered paper & 95% "green" - made specifically for sound control. Works great in controlling fan noise. I also replaced all the fans in my gear. There are much quieter fans available than stock fans. Check out newegg.com, zipzoomfly.com or tigerdirect.com among many others suppliers. Some take their gear cables & fans out of their tracking area via wall ports.

So get to work Zenpicker. Keep us posted on your progress. Everyone's got a different, cooler way of treating their space, tailored to their needs. Mine worked perfectly for me (I did it in spurts over two years). But it would be overkill for many players. I found that I actually like making those absorbers. Ha! Probably the glue-sprayng aspect (Loctite HD 200 or 300 in blue/red cans is the best) or tactile sense of the hot melt glue (you need this). I should send Fran a check! BTW Zen, do the gluing outside if you can.

All the best!

alohachris

[zenpicker]

Wow, really useful - and generous of your time! Thanks so much.

Those all sound like achievable steps, though covering my lovely view (deer, etc.) with movers' blankets does give me pause. I have cotton curtains on the windows now, but I guess that's not enough. Ah well.....the sacrifices we make for art. Hey, at least you've given me leave to rip up the old carpeting and install a nice oak floor!

I actually made some Auralex panels and gobos some years back (I think based on Eltjo's design) and I may repurpose those for some of the treatment...while using Fran's design and your OC703 approach for other spaces such as the floor-wall junctions. It sounds like I do have to be thinking about bass traps. Again, useful info.

Good ideas on the fan noise too. The iMac runs in two modes: dead quiet or jet-engine loud. There's some known firmware issue that causes the fan to kick on when it makes no sense to (core temp normal) but nothing I've tried from Apple forums etc. has cured it. I've long since surrendered. So I'll just put it in a box, I guess.

Thanks ever so much.

E

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Zenpicker,

It's great that you've taken the time to research & understand the importance of Room Treatment of our tracking & mixing spaces to the quality of our acoustic recordings.

Isn't Ethan Winer's treatment "bible" fantastic? I also like the stories & studio pictures over at Gearslutz "Studio Building & Treatment" forum.

But here are some quick-&-dirty thoughts that may help you with conceptualizing your treatment & tricks about how to do it .

First, leave the floor uncarpeted. If anyone here has a carpeted floor in their space, just get some 1/4" plywood to put over it in your tracking space. Some reflection is good.

Meter your space to see where the refection issues are.

RE: Fran's Great DIY Portable Broadband Absorbers. They work great. I made 22 of them for my former space which had floor-ceiling glass on three sides & a very high ceiling. It controlled it perfectly. You can place them where you need them, even adding some space in between in you want to experiment & allow more room in.

If I were you, I'd make about 10 of those 4"x2'x4' beauties. Easy to do. All of the materials you need- including more attractive White Burlap covering material - is available at Walmart.

Place two in behind the mic's, two behind you & two at each side - plus a couple over your tracking area. That will control you space - a room-within-a-room approach.

Note: to keep them from falling over, use wire or wire hangers & just jam them into two ansorbers. They'll hold fine as long as they are butted up against each other. That's a good little trick.

I also treated the entire room too, filling the corners w/ OC 703 absorber panels as bass traps & also the ceiling to wall corners as well.

Suggestion: To control the reflecting mid's, I hung double layers of mover's blankets in front of the windows & any other reflective surface - like TV's or big pictures. Despite what Ethan says, those can really help control reflections when combined w/ the broadband absorbers

Go to a moving co. Ask them for used mover's blankets. Should be free. Wash them. Hammer in 1/2" grommets along one folded edge for hanging. Hang a layer 4" off the Windows (at least) & another layer 4" out from that if can. Airspace is good in treatment.

That will give you the room treatment you need, Zen. Simple, easy to make, affordable (saves thousand$), flexible (try making a vocal booth out of stacked absorbers), & portable. You can use the room for other activities because you can store absorbers & blankets out of the way.

That worked great for me. Start w/ 6-10 broad-band absorbers for that glass-y space, Zen, & around 10 blankets.

For controlling computer fan noise, my iMac is not very noisy, but my Glyph storage external HD's were. So I made some boxes out of 1/2" Homasote (440 Soundboard) which you can find everywhere.

It's recycled, engineered paper & 95% "green" - made specifically for sound control. Works great in controlling fan noise. I also replaced all the fans in my gear. There are much quieter fans available than stock fans. Check out newegg.com, zipzoomfly.com or tigerdirect.com among many others suppliers. Some take their gear cables & fans out of their tracking area via wall ports.

So get to work Zenpicker. Keep us posted on your progress. Everyone's got a different, cooler way of treating their space, tailored to their needs. Mine worked prefectly for me (I did it in spurts over two years). But it would be overkill for many players. I found that I actually like making those absorbers. Ha! Probably the glue-sprayng aspect or tactile sense of the hot melt glue. I should send Fran a check! BTW Zen, do the gluing outside if you can.

All the best!

alohachris

[zenpicker]

By the way, aloha, you suggested metering the room. Can you suggest an affordable device for that task?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Larry, I neglected to answer your question about recording in the living room. Never tried it. Now that I have mike positions figured out and all my gear centralized I'm not so portable....

Hi Edward...

I realize the portability thing is huge, and I'm married too. I think I know how my wife would respond if I asked permission to bring a rig to our living room and leave it for a month or two.

I know how she'd respond if I just brought it there thinking "Easier to ask forgiveness than permission." And I would be asking forgiveness... while moving everything back to the basement.

[zenpicker]

LOL....
Hey - can I just drive up there and record in your living room????

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Edward...

I realize the portability thing is huge, and I'm married too. I think I know how my wife would respond if I asked permission to bring a rig to our living room and leave it for a month or two.

I know how she'd respond if I just brought it there thinking "Easier to ask forgiveness than permission." And I would be asking forgiveness... while moving everything back to the basement.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Thanks, Larry - good guidance on the carpeting. That's the kind of info I'm looking for.

Hi Edward...

Maybe I missed it, but how high is the ceiling in your room?

When I realized (while reading something tone related) bass penetrates everything including carpet and walls, but midrange and trebles are absorbed (at varying rates), it seemed to explain to me why I was struggling for a better balance and getting mid/bass bumps. Pulled the carpet, and it balanced right out.

It was easy, because we had simply bought a carpet which fit the room, and rolled it out as opposed to gluing it or putting a pad under it. Easy to experiment.

Also, I discovered one of my clients angling and backing himself into the corner and it really produced seriously negative affect on the recorded tone. When I moved him back to the center of the room and made him stay, it cleared up. He was just trying to 'make himself comfortable'.

I'm excited to hear results from your experiments and project.

[alohachris]

Aloha Zenpicker,

RE: SPL Metering & calculation of your space for reflections.

Our friend Fran did the leg-work for that too, here (Mahalo Fran!):

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...tion-software/

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

[zenpicker]

Ceiling is 7'3" at the highest, more like 6'5" under the duct. LOW.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Edward...

Maybe I missed it, but how high is the ceiling in your room?

When I realized (while reading something tone related) bass penetrates everything including carpet and walls, but midrange and trebles are absorbed (at varying rates), it seemed to explain to me why I was struggling for a better balance and getting mid/bass bumps. Pulled the carpet, and it balanced right out.

It was easy, because we had simply bought a carpet which fit the room, and rolled it out as opposed to gluing it or putting a pad under it. Easy to experiment.

Also, I discovered one of my clients angling and backing himself into the corner and it really produced seriously negative affect on the recorded tone. When I moved him back to the center of the room and made him stay, it cleared up. He was just trying to 'make himself comfortable'.

I'm excited to hear results from your experiments and project.

[zenpicker]

Ah, that FRAN.....!

The link in his blog to the Radio Shack unit is dead, but I see they have several for about $50. I'll check it out (and keep my receipt).....

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Zenpicker,

RE: SPL Metering & calculation of your space for reflections.

Our friend Fran did the leg-work for that too, here (Mahalo Fran!):

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...tion-software/

A Hui Hou!

alohachris

[sdelsolray]

Tough room, mostly because of the low ceiling and windows. A couple of thoughts:

1) You might want to rethink the placement of your work table and monitors as well as the sitting position for recording (and the resulting placement of the mics). Once the closet is removed, perhaps placing the work table facing the far right short wall would provide a better monitoring station. As to sitting and mic placements, if you simply turn around 180 degrees from the new suggested monitoring position and place the mics there, that might help too. Both of these locations (monitor location, mic locations) will be away from the center of the room, which is usually a good thing.

2) Before anything, though, testing the room, adding adequate bass traps, etc., will help a lot. I suspect you'll want the room fairly dead. You can add a decent reverb program to the "dryish" recordings on mixdown to introduce spaciousness.

3) If your computer/monitor can play test tones at various frequencies, one neat (and free) thing to do is to play a test tone at a particular frequency and walk around the room. You'll notice that frequency will sound soft, medium or loud depending on where your ears are in the room relative to the monitors. Do this many times with different frequencies.