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  #16  
Old 02-25-2021, 11:02 AM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Jim,

Before you enter into a discussion of ANY microphone, please consider this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PABO6WrPjFQ

Don't do it, because it's like getting a free ticket to H%ll!

You'll get hooked on mic's & AGF fast & then quickly move past the lowly SM-57 up through the ranks of entry-level mic's. Then as your ear becomes more educated, you'll "need" something better than a Rode anything, like a KM-184 or M-300.

Then, maybe you'll be dreaming of a matched pair of CMC641's or M-295's & pairing it with a $3-5K preamp in your new studio, wishing you could get those Barefoot Sound monitors at $12K.

You'll become a regular at gearslutz "high end" & other gear/audio sites. You may even spend lotsa time auditioning mic's at home - before you buy. It'll become a takeover lifestyle. Goodbye money, goodbye time, goodbye wife or girlfriend. Goodbye soul & sanity. It's Mic Madness!

The point is: DON'T DO IT, Jim! Mic's are a terrible, terrible addiction. The beginner's instrument mic SM57 is only the gateway "drug" to full-blown Microphone H%ll!

Worst of all, you'll become an unwitting expert in the subtlties of upper & lower mid's, how to identify bogus specs, & the decibel level's of your mic's problem frequencies. Oh, it never ends! It never ends!

Signed,

A Forty Year Former Mic Addict who once spent $17K on a U47 that once belonged to Frank Sinatra. Sheesh!
Amen brother ,,, can I get a witness ........

"Don't know what t I'm gonna doooo,,,, I keep Fallin' in and out of love with you "
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  #17  
Old 02-25-2021, 11:47 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Originally Posted by Trent in WA View Post
George, another mic I'd recommend is the Aston Element. When I was first getting into recording years ago, I picked up an SM7B, and it quickly became my go-to vocal mic, but I sold it when I lost interest in writing and recording for a while. (Yeah, those were dark times.) I liked it because it was pretty flattering to my occasionally raspy singing voice. When I started back up again last year, I thought a lot about getting another one, but held off because of the price. At $200, I thought the Element might be worth a try, and so far I really like it. It's a very smooth mic that still has good high-frequency response. It's also an active mic, so you don't need to run it with a preamp with a lot of gain. I've not tried it on an acoustic guitar yet, but I probably will soon.

Trent
I had not heard of the Aston Element before. HERE is a review of the mic with frequency response curve.

It certainly seems like an interesting mic and based on the curve it looks like it de-emphasizes the frequencies up around 2-3Khz. It looks like it also has good bass response, some have suggested maybe too much bass response, but most are addressing this with a high pass filter.

- Glenn
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  #18  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:32 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
We should make folks aware that there have been 3 versions of the 421. The original "N," very smooth and even, cream-colored. The "U" came next and has a mild, narrow midrange peak. Gray-colored. The current "MD421 II" has a pronounced midrange spike that can range from innocuous to vicious depending on the source. They're black. I'd look for one of the others first.
Hi Brent,

Interesting... I didn't know what the differences were between the various color 421 mics! I'm going to remember that! The cream color is good! The black color, not as good.

My 421 is black. I do hear that upper frequency rise in the response curve today now that I have gotten used to better microphones, but 30 years ago it just sounded a whole lot better than the microphones I had been using. The Internet has opened up so much more information for all of us today. And 30 years ago I could not have afforded the mics I have today, anyway.

Thanks for your response!

- Glenn
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  #19  
Old 02-25-2021, 09:29 PM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
Hi George,

I have a pair of Rode NT5 small diaphragm condenser mics that I have used extensively for guitar. Cost is about $429 new. These are decent microphones but there is some criticism that the upper frequencies are too hyped. You'll note that the curve shows only about a 2db boost starting at about 5 khz going up to about 15 khz. You'll also note a drop of about 4db below 100 hz. I hear both the slight high frequency emphasis and a de-emphasis of the bass. These mics sound very clean and sparkly and because of the bass de-emphasis, I can use the cardioid mics up fairly close to the guitar without hearing much of a proximity effect.

For about $70 more the SE8 mics at $500 for the pair provide a very flat curve.

In the last year or two I have been using a pair of Warm Audio WA-85 SDC mics. They are a little warmer sounding, maybe a little less hyped in the high frequencies compared to the Rode NT5. I spent $750 for pair.

I have a mounting plate for these two SDC mics, which separates them by about 6 or 8 inches, and I aim one at about the 14th fret and one towards the top of the guitar in the bass bout region. This allows me to use only one mic stand for both mics to keep my recording area from being too cluttered with junk. I use three video cameras and two mic stands (one mic stand for the two SDC guitar mics and one larger mic stand for the vocal mic) in a relatively compact space, so not having to use three mic stands is helpful.

Regarding background noise it may be helpful to consider using a microphone reflexion filter that might help block out extraneous noise. I am recording in a separate room above my garage so I am isolated from the house. The only noise that causes me trouble is a near neighbor starting up a lawn tractor outside and sometimes overhead airplanes. I live out in the country on a dead-end road, so it's quiet here.

I do know what you mean about spending more time being a technician rather than being a musician. It's a problem when a person is the guitar player, the singer, and the recording engineer plus the guitar technician. Between manipulating programs and messing with recording setups, it's a wonder we get to make music at all. I am spending so much time on technical issues that I am losing my calluses.

- Glenn
Glenn

Do you have any experience with SM81's and if so how do they compare to your NT5's for acoustic guitar?

Thanks,

George
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  #20  
Old 02-26-2021, 12:35 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Glenn

Do you have any experience with SM81's and if so how do they compare to your NT5's for acoustic guitar?

Thanks,

George
Hi George,

I have no personal experience with an SM81.

From everything I know, the SM81 is an excellent SDC studio microphone. HERE is Shure's spec sheet and curve on it. It's got a very flat curve as you can see. It's down a couple of db from about 500 hz to 40 hz. but that is at 1 meter distance from the sound source. With the mic at 8" or so, there will likely be some bass boost from the proximity effect. Note there is no hyped up high frequency boost. It's very flat out to at least 18 khz.

Here is a product review to give you some perspective.

I would put the Shure SM81 a notch higher on the quality chart above the Rode NT5. This mic is a staple of professional, commercial recording studios. I imagine Bob and Brent could provide some feedback on this mic.

- Glenn
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Last edited by Glennwillow; 02-26-2021 at 12:52 AM.
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  #21  
Old 02-26-2021, 11:04 AM
Trent in WA Trent in WA is offline
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Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
I had not heard of the Aston Element before. HERE is a review of the mic with frequency response curve.

It certainly seems like an interesting mic and based on the curve it looks like it de-emphasizes the frequencies up around 2-3Khz. It looks like it also has good bass response, some have suggested maybe too much bass response, but most are addressing this with a high pass filter.

- Glenn
The mic has a pretty large diaphragm and a lightweight body, which makes for a pronounced proximity effect if you're working it closely--say, less than a foot. Back away from it a little--12 to 18 inches--and it's not an issue.

I did record a test track yesterday with acoustic guitar and, while I think the result would work well as part of a busy mix, it wouldn't be a good choice if the guitar was a featured player. Unless--and I didn't test this yesterday--you're playing percussively, with a lot of snap. For harmonica, though? I might never use another mic. Basically, if you're looking for "smooth" and "clear" for sources that can potentially be harsh but whose top end is important, I think it's your ticket.
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  #22  
Old 02-28-2021, 01:49 AM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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This review page has been very informative. I'm afraid however that there are now many microphones in my future:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/ch...-mic-shootout/


George
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2021, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by GeorgeG View Post
This review page has been very informative. I'm afraid however that there are now many microphones in my future:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/ch...-mic-shootout/


George
Rabbit hole: descended.

Lynn Fuston, who produces those shootout features for Sweetwater, is a veteran engineer who used to run an audio forum out of Nashville that I hung out at for years. A good guy who has semi-obsessively pursued the work of producing high-quality gear shootouts. (His 3D Audio Mic CD and Mic Pre CDs were legendary long before he arrived at Sweetwater.)
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  #24  
Old 02-28-2021, 10:01 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Originally Posted by GeorgeG View Post
This review page has been very informative. I'm afraid however that there are now many microphones in my future:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/ch...-mic-shootout/


George
Hi George,

Yes, Sweetwater does a good job with this kind of comparison. Also, very interesting comments from Nightchef about this. I'm going to review the Sweetwater comparison again, myself.

I wish I had a review like this to refer to when I was looking for my guitar mics. This is really useful, I think!

- Glenn
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Last edited by Glennwillow; 02-28-2021 at 10:39 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-28-2021, 10:35 AM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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Rabbit hole: descended.

Lynn Fuston, who produces those shootout features for Sweetwater, is a veteran engineer who used to run an audio forum out of Nashville that I hung out at for years. A good guy who has semi-obsessively pursued the work of producing high-quality gear shootouts. (His 3D Audio Mic CD and Mic Pre CDs were legendary long before he arrived at Sweetwater.)
It’s not as dark or as lonely down here as I thought it would be. There are so many of you with me and the glow of all these smart phones reading mic reviews lights the way!

If only it was as simple as one microphone with a flat uncolored frequency response. What did we do before all of these choices? Oh ya, we played music. LOL.


George
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  #26  
Old 02-28-2021, 02:18 PM
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Aloha Jim,
A Forty Year Former Mic Addict who once spent $17K on a U47 that once belonged to Frank Sinatra. Sheesh!
Wow i would love to hear the story about that mic. Was it everything you totally dreamed of?

I agree mics can be a slippery slope. There is always something better and they get expensive fast. That being said i have never regretted my pair of Gefell M300s. They are within my means, and at least now I know the Mic is not the weak link.

Those Warm Audio 84s look cool. I have thought about getting a pair for a second set of small diaphragm condenser’s
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Old 02-28-2021, 03:43 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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... Those Warm Audio 84s look cool. I have thought about getting a pair for a second set of small diaphragm condenser’s
Hi Anton,

I have enjoyed my Warm Audio WA-84 mics. For the cost of $750/pair, the WA-84 seemed worth a try to me. They are a very notable improvement over my Rode NT5 mics that I have used for many years, and I'm very glad I made the investment.

- Glenn
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Old 02-28-2021, 05:24 PM
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I also want to plug a worthy competitor to Warm, Vanguard, which is also making high-quality mics at reasonable prices. I haven’t tried their pencil condenser, the V1, but their multipattern tube mic, the V13, is wonderful.

https://vanguardaudiolabs.com/products/
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  #29  
Old 03-01-2021, 11:50 AM
GeorgeG GeorgeG is offline
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When you guys find a microphone that works for you does it tend to be closer to the sound you want without eq or does it tend to be a mic that “take eq” better to give you what you are looking for. I started off making the mistake of not finding out what a given mic would sound like after I finished processing the track. Some sound better to me by say brightening them up vs a mic that starts off brighter but harsher.

What say you guys?


George
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  #30  
Old 03-01-2021, 06:21 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Aloha George! The Ride Was Worth The Fare!

Aloha George,

Good questions.

For over 40 years, I was a hopeless, high-end mic addict. I started harmlessly out on cheaper mic's (under $1K). Then moved up to 'gateway' mid-range mics (over $1K). I saved & built a bank-roll, using gig & CD-sales money only, nothing from my day job...& went to "work." Most importantly, I quickly figured out the markets, locations & players in an intense game, & spent years auditioning, trading & buying, or simply trading up the highest-end mic's ($10K-$50K), & bigger players, looking for the grail for me.

It started with some basic needs:

1) I'm blessed/cursed to have a great pair of trained ears that are still pitch perfect, even today at 76,

2) As a luthier in the 80's, I needed to capture the best raw sound of my many acoustic instruments, and

3) For over 50 years, I was an almost nightly gigger who was always looking for "my best" sounding live & studio mic's for the recordings I made for sale at gigs. LIVE was always my main focus Although I did appear on others' recordings from time to time, on the different instruments I made, I only limited-released a couple of my own album/recordings of original music.

From those basic acoustic needs grew the absolutely satisfying, wildly fun & worthwhile mic addiction that continued for decades until......I auditioned the Schoeps CMC6 w/ MK-41 hyper cardioid capsules (& many other capsules in their modular approach).

For me, my ultimate SDC search ended right then & there, George. Raw or processed, the very balanced & natural, amazingly-detailed, & always musical sound that a matched pair of Schoeps captured, for me - on all my instruments, was the absolute closest to the sound inside my head AND in my ears - always.

A very different mic, the Microtech-Gefell M295 cardioid w/ metal diaphragm was also hugely satisfying in capturing my raw acoustic sound. But its metal caps did not like the high humidity of Hawaii..... Great mic's though!

For my vocals, I played "heavy high-end" there for a long time, refusing to believe that my voice was the lowest common denominator in my recording studio signal chain. HA!

I went through U47's & 48's like they were SM-58's at one point there, spending a whopping $17K for one old 50's U-47 (found in Germany) that was owned & used by Frank Sinatra on his Columbia recordings. Had it for a couple months, enjoyed its smooth lower mid's, then made a $2K profit on it in Japan & moved on to......

My ultimate studio LDC vocal mic: the Microtech-Gefell UM-900, an incredible Art Deco-designed, variable 5-pattern beauty with everything my voice could ever want or need. The only tube LDC ever that ran on 48V phantom power, not an external power supply! Combined with a Pendulum MDP-1a tube preamp, the UM-900 always put me into acoustic nirvana in my little, but really well-planned & treated home studio. Living alone up in the rainforest, I'd spend weeks up there blissing out on those mic's. And at just-under $5K, the new UM-900 wasn't nearly as expensive or unreliable as all those vintage "U's."

When I heard those two high-end mic's - a pair of SDC's & an LDC - after auditioning thousands & owning hundreds of outstanding mic's? THAT WAS THE END OF 'DA SOICH' for me. And it was the absolute APEX & final act of my addiction. I never bought, or even thought of auditioning, trading or buying another mic ever again.

In the end, when I analyzed my addiction, I realized that it was the love of pure acoustic tone, my curiosity, & the incredible fun of meeting all the very cool & knowledgable people I 'did' mic deals with, all over the world, that was the source of it all. I won some. I lost some. But I found a way of building resources & other mic's up, without hardly any money after awhile, all just to play at home through some of the best classic mic's ever made - mostly by trading with VERY cool people.

I mean COOL. I met Ben Harper in the process, another total mic addict with great musical knowledge & real talent. We would talk & laugh & later play on Skype 'Mic's" for hours over quite a long period of years. Many Cool People, George!

Those were very fun years in my life, but no more. At 76, I can no longer play, sing or record. "But I had my fun!" (Chambers Brothers-'69)

That's me story & I'm stickin' to it, George! The ride was worth the fare!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 03-01-2021 at 07:28 PM.
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