Guitars "opening up" - How to defend the claim?

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

...

It's been my experience that anyone who poses a question rudely has absolutely no intention of listening to what you have to say or ever changing their mind.

...
Some fine players have an astonishing lack of aural perception when it comes to anything subtle. Some of those players believe strongly that if they don't perceive it you're imagining it. ....

That's a couple of good quotes.

My bet is that this person had no intention of buying that guitar, no matter what was said - or was not said. There is, however, a good reason not to make a claim of this sort. You are saying it is now as good as it will get; it won't improve. If a person is going to play before buying and believes in guitars "opening up", that such a claim is a negative comment. If your business is mostly on-line, then if may be worth making (until you run into someone like the guy that set this off).

[Shortfinger]

Well, I don't know about you all, but it's my truth that opening up is a myth.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Organic Sounds Select Guitars

…How did I do? I tried to keep it short, since this is a YouTube comment. Is there a better way to explain this succinctly? Is there a great article to reference? Am I totally misguided in my explanation? I'd love to hear from Alan Carruth or another of our wonderful AGF experts on this.

Thanks folks!

Hi Larry…
I think you explained it well.

I asked a luthier with over 20 yrs of building experience at the time what he thought of the concept of opening up. He explained that in his experience the greatest detectable points of change were the first three hours, then three days off the bench, three weeks, three months and three years.

I'd add real-time in my hands playing of the same instruments over the past 60 years of playing guitar have revealed things to me. While I might not have described it a systematically, I agreed with detectable changes.

Since he built a lot of guitars for overseas & wanted to stabilize them as much as possible before shipping, and I used to go to his shop and play fresh-off-the-bench guitars and early weeks old guitars for a couple hours each. I did this for the year my guitar was being built, and for the following year.

I concluded the changes he sited did apply to his instruments.

I know my Olson changed tremendously, noticeably (not only to me but players who'd drop in every few months and play guitars at our home) for the first decade. After that it has continued to improve/change through it's current 30 years of living in our house.

Guitars opening up is an experience I have personally overseen several times as I was privileged to play 4 guitars from 1st purchase to where they are today (the youngest being 18 years old).

After 40 years of teaching 8-12 hours a week of fingerstyle lessons in our home, instructing players with intermediate to advanced musical skills and hearing everything from inexpensive to handbuilt guitars, and playing every guitars during every lesson (as well as listening), the changes when players bought new guitars was readily apparent to both them and me.

Experiential 'testimony' is not to be discounted…
It is likely a result of long-term and repeated exposure to the instruments as they open. It is not disqualified (nor to be ignored) it because it's not measured with gauges, or recorded on video or audio.

Ears, hands, bodies (where instruments rest against us) are all trustworthy tools.

I've gotten a bit 'ruffled' by people who want/demand/afflict me with opinions about over-active-imagination and poor memory based on brain-work and not from holding and playing an instrument for thousands of hours.

But since there is no convincing disagreers, I decided early on to just play and enjoy my instruments, (and those that belong to others).

[Lkristians]

Good on you for taking the high road. I would have said, "You have the right to have the wrong opinion."

[leew3]

Originally Posted by Organic Sounds Select Guitars

Thanks David and I do agree with you. But I sell guitars for a living, so I'd like to make sure that I can succinctly and accurately defend what I say about them.

You've done that and the troll that responded as you listed in your original post isn't going to be interested in buying a guitar from you. Well done.

[TedBPhx]

Two same year same model instruments one a daily player the other a case queen. Will they open up the same? I suspect yes. And the opening effect is the changes to the wood not vibration but those who extol the virtues of mechanical vibration devices would probably disagree.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Life's short. Some things just aren't important enough to get in a twist over. You said your piece. Now you can let it go.

[Brent Hutto]

This topic is in a large category of points literally not worth arguing about because there is no objective "truth" involved.

When someone makes a statement like, "I have often heard an improvement in the sound of guitars over a period of years as compared to when they are new" that is completely unfalsifiable and neither can it be proven true. One can only decide if ones own experience agrees with the statement or not. Or one can decide to take it on faith or authority without having experience of their own.

So I've no idea how best to manage your social media presence but nobody's beliefs are going to change one way or the other no matter what you say, other than whatever reaction they have to the tone of your interactions. It's all about managing the "optics" so to speak of your response or non-response to online comments.

[Rosette]

Some of the claims that 'opening up' is a myth made me think about torrefaction and why so many guitar makers would be going to all the additional trouble of doing that with the tops if it's all just a myth. Seems like it would be easier for manufacturers/luthiers (who I'd think customers place trust in for their knowledge and expertise) to just dispel myths like this if it's all just the emperor's new clothes.

Even if you could get close to providing some evidence (like by taking two Eastmans where everything is identical except the tops where one is torrefied) you'd still not convince everyone as people would be thinking about other variables.

[TBman]

I'm not sure if it matters and I don't think it is measurable. It's a matter of perception. I wouldn't have responded.

[stuartb]

I've bought a number of guitars that were - just built, so to speak, and my experience with three of them provide some insights in this area.

Two of these guitars were luthier built - one a Franklin, an OM by Nick Kukich, and one a Double Zero, built by Kim Walker and the third was a production line guitar, a Collings 000.

The Kim Walker was one of his Master Series, now called, which means that he designed it and built it - to his own specs, which were perfect for me, but as I understood it, he was trying to improve the sound of his guitars, based on his own desired specs, and design modifications - how else would you continue to improve your final results?

Anyway, as part of this process for these Master guitars, Kim hangs on to the completed guitar for quite a long period after he builds them. As I recall, he held onto my guitar for about six months after final completion, presumably to understand the evolution of the tone and playability based on his design and material choices he had made. I found that very interesting. My thoughts were that much of the opening up would have occurred by the end of this period.

With respect to the Franklin. I received it very soon after it had been built. This guitar really did shock me in terms of opening up over a 5 - 8 month period after I received it. There was no question about that. It produced a much more robust sound, with deeper base, and was generally, far more satisfying to listen to by the end of this period. This is when I really became convinced that guitars go through a process of settling, and effectively change, in terms of their tonal properties. I really don't concern myself with what it will sound like in 50 years.

The 000-C 2006 Collings I bought very soon after it was built, in 2006, as we were able to remove the pick guard using heat, with no impact on the look of the top, which they did at the Music Emporium, because it had so recently been put on. I did not notice an opening up of this production line guitar. I have no understanding why it would be different in this regard. I love playing it, and it sounds great, but I did not hear a substantial change over the first year.

I guess the important thing is having an opinion that is based on your own experience.

Stuart

[rllink]

People hear what they hear and no amount of science, or lack of, can refute it. Because people like to tell other people what they should do, say, and hear, for arguments sake it is given a label, opening up, so that it can be analyzed and we all start lecturing each other on the subject. But it is a ridiculous argument. There is nothing to defend. It isn't about science, logic, or mysticism, it is simply about what an individual hears or doesn't hear. My stance on it is that I'm not going to try to tell someone else they didn't hear what they heard.

[bfm612]

Originally Posted by Rosette

Some of the claims that 'opening up' is a myth made me think about torrefaction and why so many guitar makers would be going to all the additional trouble of doing that with the tops if it's all just a myth. Seems like it would be easier for manufacturers/luthiers (who I'd think customers place trust in for their knowledge and expertise) to just dispel myths like this if it's all just the emperor's new clothes.

I'm not saying that torrefaction doesn't work (because I don't own a torrefied guitar), but the less generous way of viewing this concept is that it's a feature for which a guitar maker can charge more. You could compare selling additional features to Jerry Lundegaard selling TruCoat for a premium. Cars are actually not a bad comparison. Car manufacturers add features that cost them money to apply probably with varying levels of true effectiveness, but it's a way of updating and differentiating their products from their other products. It's not necessarily a true enhancement, and guaranteed they'll make money off of that feature.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Organic Sounds Select Guitars

Hi friends,

An early guitar video that I made about three years ago, before I opened my shop, was of an all mahogany boutique brand guitar that was about 11 or 12 years old at the time. In the course of the video, I mentioned that the guitar has had "several years to open up", and went on to explain what I liked about its tone.

A couple of days ago, I received the following comment on that video:

"Another idiotic statement about guitars "opening up". THAT IS BEE ESS. Such claims are NEVER reinforced with science."

I typically ignore this kind of comment, but I was in more of a mood to respond this time (maybe the "idiotic" word triggered me a bit!).

Here's what I wrote, and I'm posting it here because I'd love to be corrected or to be advised on a better way to talk about this topic since it does come up periodically. Here was my response:

"The problem with looking for scientific proof here is this: try designing a study. We're talking about changes over years. How do you control all variables? If you're going to measure sound characteristics (not just volume and sustain, but also harmonic complexity, dynamic range, timbre, etc), then you have to control for how the notes are played - the force and duration of the string plucking or strum, the room temperature and humidity, the exact placement of the microphone, etc. Even if you could somehow control all of those variables, the guitar will have different strings on it. If you want to talk science, take a look at wood on its structural level, specifically the hemicellulose and lignins, and how they change as the wood ages and dries. Now add repeated vibration to those wood fibers over the course of years, and see what happens. Last thought: ask any experienced luthier if they think that solid wood guitars change over time - you'll have a difficult time finding any who will say no."

How did I do? I tried to keep it short, since this is a YouTube comment. Is there a better way to explain this succinctly? Is there a great article to reference? Am I totally misguided in my explanation? I'd love to hear from Alan Carruth or another of our wonderful AGF experts on this.

Thanks folks!

On the one hand you did great on the other hand not so much

Let me explain as I see it and perhaps add a bit to what others have already noted .

The statement "open up" is definitely not "idiotic" And yet neither is it factually accurate, what it is - is a subjective phrase (commonly used in the guitar world to imply ( improvement in tone over time ) and is a totally subjective conclusion at best ..
But "open up" is not accurate in terms of "the science" of what is happening. The science can only prove that wood objectively changes over time But as you correctly stated because of the insurmountable logistical issues involved, science cannot prove if that change can actually be detected by human hearing in terms of tonal change and especially cannot prove if that change creates an actual "improvement" in tone or not....

So the problem is if your going to fall back on the science,,, the use of phrase "open up" is not scientific. So while using that phrase is not "idiotic" --- it is also superficial at best ...

[Rosette]

Originally Posted by bfm612

I'm not saying that torrefaction doesn't work because I don't own a torrefied guitar, but the less generous way of viewing this concept is that it's a feature for which a guitar maker can charge more.

I thought about that, but I also thought a manufacturer would likely appear more credible and trusted by just saying "this is a myth, and we don't do it". But yeah that's probably too naive where trends and dollars are concerned.