Do I need a neck reset?

[Flatpicker97]

Thanks for your help everyone! I guess I’ll have to find a decent luthier and see what they say. I’m not too precious about guitars so if it has to go it has to go, but it would be shame as I do really like it!

[phavriluk]

Originally Posted by Flatpicker97

Sorry sorry I’m an idiot… it’s 10mm

10 mm = 1 cm = .4" (rounded). Getting low. I suggest a professional analysis, there's little to no room to lower the strings.

[John Arnold]

I would reduce the relief to 0.1mm (0.004") and see how that does.
The 1/2" rule for string height above the top is just a rough guide. In general, I tend to think reset when the string height is 3/8" or less, but it really depends on how robust the guitar build is. In particular, a lightly built guitar can sound just great at 3/8". But at some point, there will be problems with having the pick or fingers strike the top or the pickguard.
I believe the bridge on that guitar has string ramps (slots) that will allow for a lower saddle and still have enough string break angle.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

I would reduce the relief to 0.1mm (0.004") and see how that does.
The 1/2" rule for string height above the top is just a rough guide. In general, I tend to think reset when the string height is 3/8" or less, but it really depends on how robust the guitar build is. In particular, a lightly built guitar can sound just great at 3/8". But at some point, there will be problems with having the pick or fingers strike the top or the pickguard.
I believe the bridge on that guitar has string ramps (slots) that will allow for a lower saddle and still have enough string break angle.

John, where and how do you measure your relief? Due to fretboard radius I get different readings under different strings. So one person's 0.004 can be another's 0.007.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Due to fretboard radius I get different readings under different strings.

?? Action height is always different for the different strings, but relief is measured by fretting a string at the 1st fret and one that's just past the trussrod's range (or simply fretting *above* the 1st fret on the body because that's where the neck ends). But whichever fret you pick both the fretboard radius and the saddle geometry should be taken out of the equation. Provided your fretboard has a fixed radius, isn't warped, the 2 frets properly seated etc.

(Pity one can't start with simply a good neck massage to see if that helps )

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by RJVB

?? Action height is always different for the different strings, but relief is measured by fretting a string at the 1st fret and one that's just past the trussrod's range (or simply fretting *above* the 1st fret on the body because that's where the neck ends). But whichever fret you pick both the fretboard radius and the saddle geometry should be taken out of the equation. Provided your fretboard has a fixed radius, isn't warped, the 2 frets properly seated etc.

(Pity one can't start with simply a good neck massage to see if that helps )

Taking for read the isolation of the string - so it becomes the "straight line" under which the radius is measured. The central strings (3 and 4) are lifted pretty much straight up and down away from or closer to the fretboard by a truss rod adjustment. However, the outer strings (6 and 1) are lifted at a tangent to the fretboard radius. The greater the radius then the more this tangent affects the result.

Fender have a table showing the recommended relief measurements for their guitars - All measurements are taken using the isolated 1st and 6th strings (first fret capo and fretboard to body joint fret). The recommended measurement's are higher for tighter radius necks on the same guitar model.

https://www.fender.com/articles/main...guitar-or-bass

Collins Guitars measure give their relief measurements for the 5th fret - but don't say which string.

Relief (measures distance from top of fret to bottom of string while fretting the 1st and 15th fret):
Relief at 5th Fret: .005" (a post-it note folded in half is about .005")

However, a lot of players give the relief measurement for the 7th fret.

So - Folks quoting relief measurements at each other here on AGF are as much use as a chocolate tea pot - unless they state "exactly" how and where those measurements were taken - and for what radius fretboard. Otherwise we end up comparing apples and oranges.

For example: A Collins style 0.005" on the 4th string 5th fret of my 16" radius A&L will measure a 0.009 under the 6th string at the 7th fret.

[phavriluk]

My opinion is that the relief as stated falls somewhere in the 'normal' range without applying the precision noted above. In other words, there's other fish to fry to come to a happier result.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Taking for read the isolation of the string - so it becomes the "straight line" under which the radius is measured. The central strings (3 and 4) are lifted pretty much straight up and down away from or closer to the fretboard by a truss rod adjustment. However, the outer strings (6 and 1) are lifted at a tangent to the fretboard radius. The greater the radius then the more this tangent affects the result.

I am not certain if I agree (= if I can picture how that would work) but that's not the point. Relief is measures as the space between the top of a fret and the lower envelope of the string when fretted at the 2 extremities of the trussrod range. That removes the string diameter plus the nut & the saddle from the equation and thus also the height difference between those 2.
Yes, the fret will be at a tangent to the plane perpendicular to the soundboard (= not parallel to the soundboard) because of its radius, but that fact should be irrelevant because the string is round and thus contacts the fret in a single point.
I cannot think of any explanation why/how a centre string could have 0 relief (= touch all frets when measuring relief as usual) given a perfect fretboard and a 1st or 6th string wouldn't. That simply doesn't compute - but maybe I ought to sit down and see if I remember all the relevant equations to do some actual computing

[Robin, Wales]

Don't bother computing, just get out your feeler gauges and a capo and measure the relief on any guitar with a radius fretboard. You'll get a different reading under the 4th string than under the 6th.

[Bruce Sexauer]

10 mm (not that I completely trust you measuring skills ) is at the lower limit for a healthy sound. .2 mm is slightly less than .008”, very close to what I recommend for most players. . . on the low E, a quarter of that on the high e.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

You'll get a different reading under the 4th string than under the 6th.

Oh sure, and it'll probably be different each time I measure, too... On the other hand, I've already used one of my favourite measuring tool (my eye-lashes; I've long mastered the art of squinting to them to go "hum") and they confirmed my expectations

Seriously, this is something where I do want to understand first.

BTW, if what you're saying is true it would be impossible to set the neck to be straight under tension to null out relief for all strings. Some would always have a non-zero relief because otherwise (the) other strings would have negative relief.

[Robin, Wales]

Imagine a 6" plastic pipe 6' long. You fix a piece of string along the top of the pipe, and a piece along each side of the pipe.

When the pipe is straight all 3 lengths of string touch it all the way along. Now bend the pipe downward in its middle and the top string lifts directly up off the pipe. But what happens to the strings at the sides?

[Bruce Sexauer]

It is entirely possible to set up a guitar with specific relief under each string. The math re a cone is one thing, and a skilled craftsman is another.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Imagine a 6" plastic pipe 6' long. You fix a piece of string along the top of the pipe, and a piece along each side of the pipe.

There are a number of reasons why this example isn't very appropriate, but I can see how one of them can actually contribute a factor I had not thought of (bending tubes is an art, bending wood tubes without breakage probably black magic).
Let's just summarise with the observation that there will probably be more or less subtle differences in how the exact longitudinal curve under each string and/or in the distance between the 2 fretting points of each string change when you work the trussrod.
I remain little convinced that this has a meaningful impact in practise

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

The math re a cone is one thing, and a skilled craftsman is another.

Yet they can't be separated, and one of them isn't always aware of that O:-)

One can undoubtedly also state that the way we measure relief is one thing and exactly what it does while playing is another.

But that string-specific relief set-up, is that a trade-secret? Is it something you do during the build or can it be done post-hoc with more simpler means on any guitar?

Evidenty I'm aware of things like high points from improperly seated frets and the custom relief pattern every steel string creates for itself when played long enough

[Henning]

"Do I need a neck reset?"

Beg your pardon, but that's the wrong forum. You'll have to turn to the medical department for that question to be answered. Personally, I wouldn't do it!