The difference between being a music box and understanding the guitar.

[brad2001]

I took proper piano lessons for a year and it made a world of difference in my understanding of music and its composition. And had the benefit of learning piano.

Gibson Dove

[stanron]

Pitar has it right. I go along with the idea that a 'good ear' is more use than theoretical knowledge. A good ear is the combination of good memory for sound and the ability to find sounds on the guitar. It is never too soon to start to develop this. To think of a couple of notes and to try and find them on a guitar is a good place to start. Without basic skills in this, theory is of little use.

Basic music theory is the vocabulary of musical phenomena. A musician either has or has not noticed said musical phenomena. If they have, then theory provides names for it. If they have not then knowing the names will not help.

For example, the relationship between chord V and chord I has a particular sound. This sound is there in any key. If a player has noticed this then the theory regarding it will make sense. If they have not noticed it the fact that theory has names and other rules about this will be of no use.

[KevWind]

This issue, and the discussion and debate that constantly swirls around it, actually highlights "one simple truth".
And that is there is no "one simple truth", no one best way to learn. All of us are different with differents levels of "natural" musical ability, and we all have different levels of learned musical ability because we all have different types and levels of learning strengths and weaknesses.
There is no this or that person's perception is '"right" or "wrong"

That said I think that the truth is , As some have pointed out ear training and learning to listen to what is going on, is extremely important and should be constantly practiced , unfortunately (except perhaps for the very exceptional and very rare individual) that is not by itself enough for most of to really understand what is going on. To truly understand and take advantage of what is going on for most of us IMO, one needs to have a trained ear yes, but also at least a basic understanding of the mathematical relationships in music and how they relate to the guitar fretboard and chord progressions and music in general .

There are a number of ways to do this, formal lessons (with the right teacher for your abilities and learning type) watching Youtube, playing with more knowledgeable persons (willing to take the time to help) Yes as someone suggested start trying to create your own compositions , etc. There is no one size fits all.

Having played by ear and from chord form diagrams for for 50 years. I could certainly hear what was going on BUT I was really no closer to understanding what was going on than I was 49 years prior when I finally knew enough basic chord shapes to play most of the songs I liked .

What worked for me was, at 67 I decided to take some lessons with the goal being to learn to play leads and learn some basic guitar applied music theory.
I was fortunate enough to find a really good teacher and take lessons once a week for about 8 months. I now have a better (if only basic) theory base and a whole universe of new possibility

[JohnW63]

Kev has it.

Pitar has it right. I go along with the idea that a 'good ear' is more use than theoretical knowledge

^ This is not it.

I learned to play in the lat 70s. From then it was figuring out songs my listening and trying to find the chords. records, tapes, CDs, radio, now Facebook or iTunes. I always had to find a chord and then try to build off of that, or hope to find the chord chart. It only got me SO far. I can find the notes in a song, well enough. I have a pretty good ear, after all these years. So, a few years ago, I started lessons, with one of the goals that are what the OP whats.

Knowing about keys, scales, how to build chords, what are turnarounds and how to use them, what the chord numbers in a scale are. That is making things so much clearer. If you know a song in one key, and you find you need to play it in another because of your voice or because the group you find yourself in knows it in a different key, transposing is a snap. Figuring out the key of a song by seeing what chord the 5th is, really helps. Changing chords shapes to get a different sound is not hard, if you know what notes are IN the chord by their numbers is really cool too. Knowing what makes a 7th chord or a 9th chord or a sus2 chord sound that way is very helpful.

A good ear only tells you that what you are playing SOUNDS right. It doesn't tell you why or how to use that to play it differently.

[mr. beaumont]

If anyone is interested, I'll start a thread...3 months to fretboard mastery.

Anyone can do it. Anyone.

[mr. beaumont]

Double post...

[islandguitar]

That would be very cool, Jeff! I would enjoy that.

two things which I individually would be curious on:

More on those very nice jazz chords you often use as related to the fretboard and, alternate tunings ( which I'm in a lot) and how fret board knowledge is further related to this aspect of acoustic guitar when not in standard tuning.

Thanks!
Fred

[mr. beaumont]

Cool, I'll put some stuff together.

Re: alternate tunings

The good news is the chords always have the same notes...the bad news is those notes might have new locations.

The variety of "jazz" chords are much easier in standard tuning.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If anyone is interested, I'll start a thread...3 months to fretboard mastery.

Anyone can do it. Anyone.

That would be interesting Jeff. The OP plays finger style, so maybe a bit on tension and release too. I could use help on that subject too.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If anyone is interested, I'll start a thread...3 months to fretboard mastery.

Anyone can do it. Anyone.

You have my interest

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Cool, I'll put some stuff together.

Re: alternate tunings

The good news is the chords always have the same notes...the bad news is those notes might have new locations.

The variety of "jazz" chords are much easier in standard tuning.

Ah, but the good news is that the intervals that make up the chords are the same. And once you adjust for the intervals between the strings in another tuning, you're good. About the same as that adjustment we make for the different interval to the B string.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

…As a writer, I have always been a bit afraid to learn music theory. Afraid that it would put my music writing in a box(of standards). Literally taking what makes my music what it is out of the equation.

On the other hand, I have always wondered if learning music theory would take me into new territories.
It is a bit of a stalemate for myself. Afraid to reach out for fear of loosing what makes me=me. And afraid of not learning so that I might reach new and different heights.

Hi K&G

I think you bring up some interesting points. Unless a person becomes totally obsessed with theory then it's going to enhance not detract from their skill sets.

For me, when I began my college theory, it brought explanations, definitions, language, and abilities in scoring, and understanding of what I'd been doing since 3rd grade.

I read notes, charts, figured bass, Solfege, Nashville numbering, and Jazz symbols. If I go to play with a band, I just figure out which language they are speaking so we are up and playing music more quickly.

In band situations I've played in locally, I can talk to one guy in alphanumerics (that's a 2, 5, 1 progression), another in chord names, another in roman numerals, and if there is a sax player I can scribble a quick staff and write out the notes for him/her.

It hasn't added to my writing or arranging skills since I've always done those by ear, not by formula or some special knowledge I appropriated in a class.

Your example of the famous bands is very appropriate. Collaboration, noodling, experimenting and jamming often leads to great songs.

At some point if you become famous enough, you are going to hire someone like me to score it all so orchestras, and studio musicians can add it to their repertoire quickly, and books of your songs with piano score have to be put together by someone.

I have met anal theory students who love to spout theory and use theory terms to show how smart they are, but that's not where theory took me in my journey. They are not much fun to be around, and they don't help a whole lot since they often prefer to argue points rather than must make music.

As to the need to learn theory, unless there is one, why would you? If you are getting along ok, then keep making music…

All opinions belong to the writer of this post…"

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

[size=2]

I read notes, charts, figured bass, Solfege, Nashville numbering, and Jazz symbols. If I go to play with a band, I just figure out which language they are speaking so we are up and playing music more quickly.

In band situations I've played in locally, I can talk to one guy in alphanumerics (that's a 2, 5, 1 progression), another in chord names, another in roman numerals, and if there is a sax player I can scribble a quick staff and write out the notes for him/her.

This is a really good point. Understanding the fundamentals shows you that all these different methods are talking about the same things. I'm just finding out that Native American flute players have their own terminology, terms like "Mode Four Pentatonic Scale" or it's a "Mode One/Four Flute." Without the fundamentals, it'd be very confusing.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Ah, but the good news is that the intervals that make up the chords are the same. And once you adjust for the intervals between the strings in another tuning, you're good. About the same as that adjustment we make for the different interval to the B string.

Exactly.

My thing would be, if you want to get the fretboard down...pick a tuning...one...to start.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by TBman

That would be interesting Jeff. The OP plays finger style, so maybe a bit on tension and release too. I could use help on that subject too.

What I got in mind has nothing to do with picking style. You could play tongue style and and get the full benefit.