Need some recording advice.

[JMFingerstyle]

So, I posted a piece I just recorded on the "Show and Tell" thread, and some of the feedback I got had to do with the quality of the recording, specifically that it sounded distant, with lots of echoes and chorus, certainly not the effect I was going for. It was suggested that perhaps the great folks here in the "Record" forum could give me some suggestions on the optimum way to use what equipment I have.

The guitar is a Taylor 8-string baritone with the ES2 sound system. I've got a Fishman Loudbox Mini amp, a Sennheiser e835 dynamic cardioid vocal mic, and a Behringer UMC22 USB Audio Interface hooked up to Windows 10 and Audacity.

The room is small, but all hard surfaces except for an area rug. Can't really make any changes there.

For the recording, I plugged the guitar into the amp with a little reverb, and mid backed off a bit. I then recorded through the mike into the UMC22. The only tweak I did in Audacity was to normalize to -1.0db. The results are below, and I agree, it sounds on the awful side. I wanted a little reverb, but I guess the room just amplified it and turned into something that sounds like really terrible chorus.

So what's the preferred method for doing this? Should I take the mixer output from the amp and run that directly into the UMC22, or should I plug directly into the UMC22 and add a touch of reverb through Audacity, or a different approach altogether? Your suggestions would be very welcome.

UPDATE: I've re-recorded this using jsanfilippo's suggestions. Sounds much better, I think. It will have to do until I get a condenser mike.

Here's the piece:

[Sage97]

Very nice playing.

I think what we're hearing is more the ES and the amp and not so much the guitar. Have you tried micing the guitar itself and not the amp? I don't keep up with the latest model numbers but a Zoom H4 would be a good place to start your research.

[runamuck]

I agree with Sage: mic your guitar and not your amp. That's the main problem.

[jsanfilippo5]

Awesome playing! To get a better recording I would do this.

1. Mic the guitar with your vocal mic, not the best mic for this application but would suffice since its all you have. Plug that into the mic interface on your behringer.

2. Plug your guitar out put into the instrument input on the behringer directly.

3. Record both signals at the same time and mic them together So each sound can kind of support each other. Assuming your behringer supports recording both those channels at the same time. You may need to download a different application for this. Im not too familiar with audacity as a recording platform, but something ikea Reaper would work on win 10.

Since your room is not ideal acoustically I would really work on getting a condenser mic and find the real sweet spot to mic the guitar - and your your direct line in from your es2 can help fill in some of the blanks. OR you may find the mic alone would be awesome as well.

All in all Upgrading your Mic would be an awesome start - one of the many sub $100/$200 condenser mics out there would work really well - something like the audio technical at2020 is reasonable and sounds pretty good. They can be noisy and be a little colorful but they i don't think it will matter with the behringer pre-amps.

Good luck!

[JMFingerstyle]

Thanks very much for all your suggestions, that's helped a lot. I've re-recorded this using jsanfilippo's suggestions. Sounds much better, I think. It will have to do until I get a condenser mike.

[Sage97]

Originally Posted by JMFingerstyle

Thanks very much for all your suggestions, that's helped a lot. I've re-recorded this using jsanfilippo's suggestions. Sounds much better, I think. It will have to do until I get a condenser mike.

Much better. Play around with the mix a little and maybe center things a bit more. The left has much more gain than the right.

[FrankHudson]

While condenser mics are commonly used for acoustic guitars, they are much more sensitive to room sound. With a condenser, you'll get a slightly brighter, quicker response to notes--things that sound good with acoustic guitar, but I'm not at all sure that it's a fix for room sound issues. Might even get worse.

What do folks think about one of those semi-circular foam mic-stand-mounted shields in the OPs situation? I know it wouldn't be the whole solution, but even with a directional pattern mic they reduce somewhat what comes in from the side. Maybe combined with a temporary duvet/quilt hung over a closeline or coat rack behind the guitarist?

[rick-slo]

Much better than orginally.
Still:
Too quiet
Boomy low end
Right and left channel imbalance
Somewhat out of phase right and left channels

Just to see what would happen I tweaked it. You may or may not like the results here:

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/AGF30.mp3

[JMFingerstyle]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Much better than orginally.
Still:
Too quiet
Boomy low end
Right and left channel imbalance
Somewhat out of phase right and left channels

Just to see what would happen I tweaked it. You may or may not like the results here:

http://dcoombsguitar.com/Temp/AGF30.mp3

Derek, thanks so much for taking the time to do that. I think figured out what went wrong that caused the L/R imbalance and the phase problem (user error on my part), but could you briefly (in broad strokes) explain what adjustments you made? Your tweaked version sounds like the destination I'm trying to get to in my recordings.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by JMFingerstyle

Derek, thanks so much for taking the time to do that. I think figured out what went wrong that caused the L/R imbalance and the phase problem (user error on my part), but could you briefly (in broad strokes) explain what adjustments you made? Your tweaked version sounds like the destination I'm trying to get to in my recordings.

In the following order:

Balanced right and left volumes and increased both a little more for over all volume.

Delayed right versus left channel (or left versus right (don't remember)) to get them more in phase. You can go by ear, but it helps to have a phase meter.

Equalized out the low frequencies starting around 60 hertz. Lowered the volume of frequencies a couple or three decibels in a smallish range centere about 160 hertz.

Boosted the frequencies a little in the range above about eight thousand hertz (not much affect from this but you recording was pretty shy on the higher frequencies).

Added a little reverb (of the type that would add clarity rather than boost the low frequencies and muddy things up).

Oh, I will add there were occasional click sounds in your recording. That usually results from an insufficient recording buffer or the computer cpu not keeping up.

[JMFingerstyle]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

In the following order:

Balanced right and left volumes and increased both a little more for over all volume.

Delayed right versus left channel (or left versus right (don't remember)) to get them more in phase. You can go by ear, but it helps to have a phase meter.

Equalized out the low frequencies starting around 60 hertz. Lowered the volume of frequencies a couple or three decibels in a smallish range centere about 160 hertz.

Boosted the frequencies a little in the range above about eight thousand hertz (not much affect from this but you recording was pretty shy on the higher frequencies).

Added a little reverb (of the type that would add clarity rather than boost the low frequencies and muddy things up).

Oh, I will add there were occasional click sounds in your recording. That usually results from an insufficient recording buffer or the computer cpu not keeping up.

Once again, it's awesome that you took the time to help out a newbie like myself. It is really very much appreciated. I think I've got a busy week ahead teaching myself the right way to use my software! Thanks a million!

[jsanfilippo5]

That sounds much better - Im listening through my monitors and for a home recording you could do alot worse I think Channels are unbalanced - but easy fix.

The corrections that someone else made - definitley cleaned up the tone a bit - but i feel like the channels balance may be a bit worse in that one - Im listening at very levels right now though! But it is a good example of what eq can do.

I agree with the comment about the condensor - In some scenarios it can make things worse for you with a crappy room - being so sensitive it will pick up more of the reflections, but I think it really depends on placement and how you play. You'll be surprised what you can get a way with.. And realistically if you are not looking to cut a CD for commercial use - What you are getting now is pretty acceptable. A little boomy - but that could be the mic and/or placement and a little EQ can go a long way in post production.

For the mic - Vocal mics usually have a bump in mid to high end of the frequency spectrum and dont respond as well with acoustic instruments as a condensor. I find on acoustic guitar dynamic mics get too boxy soundy - With a condensor you should technically be able to capture more subtleties and overtones of the guitar but placement is key and you may need to move around the room to find the spot that really sings.. And treating the room with some blankets can help alot - just dont crazy with that!

Here are some links to good mics for what you are doing:

Large diaphragm - http://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTAT2035?siid=75238 - I ike this mic alot and it would double as a good vocal mic if you ever wanted to record voice.

small diaphragm - http://www.zzounds.com/item--AKGP170 - I just bought a pair of these for practically nothing on reverb - i have yet to really try them but so far they sound really good for the money. and at under $100 this may be the ticket for you.

Good luck! I think with what you have though you can get some pretty good recordings if you play with the mic placement and even try different area of the room!

[JMFingerstyle]

Originally Posted by jsanfilippo5

That sounds much better - Im listening through my monitors and for a home recording you could do alot worse I think Channels are unbalanced - but easy fix.

The corrections that someone else made - definitley cleaned up the tone a bit - but i feel like the channels balance may be a bit worse in that one - Im listening at very levels right now though! But it is a good example of what eq can do.

I agree with the comment about the condensor - In some scenarios it can make things worse for you with a crappy room - being so sensitive it will pick up more of the reflections, but I think it really depends on placement and how you play. You'll be surprised what you can get a way with.. And realistically if you are not looking to cut a CD for commercial use - What you are getting now is pretty acceptable. A little boomy - but that could be the mic and/or placement and a little EQ can go a long way in post production.

For the mic - Vocal mics usually have a bump in mid to high end of the frequency spectrum and dont respond as well with acoustic instruments as a condensor. I find on acoustic guitar dynamic mics get too boxy soundy - With a condensor you should technically be able to capture more subtleties and overtones of the guitar but placement is key and you may need to move around the room to find the spot that really sings.. And treating the room with some blankets can help alot - just dont crazy with that!

Here are some links to good mics for what you are doing:

Large diaphragm - http://www.zzounds.com/item--AUTAT2035?siid=75238 - I ike this mic alot and it would double as a good vocal mic if you ever wanted to record voice.

small diaphragm - http://www.zzounds.com/item--AKGP170 - I just bought a pair of these for practically nothing on reverb - i have yet to really try them but so far they sound really good for the money. and at under $100 this may be the ticket for you.

Good luck! I think with what you have though you can get some pretty good recordings if you play with the mic placement and even try different area of the room!

Thanks very much. I think that between your help and Derek's, my recording capability has improved a bit. Not looking to cut a CD or anything, I just would like to be able to post now and then in the "Show and Tell" forum without embarrassing myself any more than my guitar playing skills warrant.

The baritone is boomy to start with, so I probably need to be more judicious in taming it. The unbalanced channels were due to one channel being recorded through the mike and the other through the pickup, and I think that's also causing a fractional amount of delay to be introduced into the signal path, which is what caused the phase shift that Derek noticed.

Last night, I went through Derek's steps and applied them to my original recording. I wasn't thrilled, because the channel that was recorded with the pickup had that "piezo" sound to it, so after getting the phases lined up, I remixed both channels to contain 60% Microphone and 40% Pickup. That final version is the one that's now linked in the original post.

It never occurred to me that recording would be so involved, since you folks make it sound so good when you do it! It is a fun learning experience though. Also, I'm really sick of "The Reach"

[Runepune]

Do you really need the piezo though? Just because you record it doesn't mean you have to use it The only thing I may use piezo for in the studio is to dial in some bottom end if needed, e.g. for some body to single string/lead stuff. But then everything except the bottom end is dialled out...I just hate that clicky, quacky piezo thing

[Beno27]

I always say to people doing home recordings, acoustics play more of a part than people think. It isn't too tough to make some homemade acoustic panels - if you have the time to make some acoustic treatments it will improve your recordings in the future.