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Old 11-10-2019, 08:09 AM
Dbone Dbone is offline
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Default May take the carbon plunge

As some of you may remember, Yamaha Canada messed up an LL36 guitar order that I had been waiting for for 5 months with a deposit down. 5 months waiting and no guitar. I ended up reordering an LL56 at a discount for my troubles, but it is still 8 or more months out from being delivered to me.

I have a really cheap laminate guitar that I’m using right now that is less than inspiring. I did eventually plan to buy a nice smaller bodied guitar with a cutaway and some electronics for versatility's sake to complement my larger bodied LL Yamaha that has none of those attributes. I’m starting to think that it might make some sense to address this now given the long lead time on my Yamaha.

Then I got thinking about carbon fiber for even more versatility. There is some opportunity to be taking a guitar back and forth to work in the winter for playing with some colleagues during lunch. I suppose carbon fiber would line up nice there too. Temps and humidity and all that...

I also like the idea of potentially being able to leave a guitar out on a stand at all times for that “walking by” aspect of things towards ease of noodling. Not that I find de-casing to be all that much of a big deal, but you know what I mean. If I really feel like using the wooden guitar I de-case and have at er’. For all around noodling and additional convenience the guitar on a stand aspect is appealing.

I guess I just have to decide if the buying cost of carbon is worth it. I can’t really achieve that on the stand at all times “walk by” aspect of things with a conventional guitar here in Canada. So perhaps it is worth it?

I am really inexperienced with carbon...literally no experience, and they are not easy to find around here to try. I could be wrong, but I have the impression I could get a comparable or better tone in a conventional smaller bodied guitar relative to a carbon for less money...but without the environmental stability delivered by carbon...

I also like the potential idea of having a really stable guitar to perform regular alternate tunings on. I have read that carbon can take the hit better than convention guitars for that? I suppose that is another win for carbon, increased versatility, etc.?

Your thoughts?
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Old 11-10-2019, 08:29 AM
kramster kramster is offline
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So you are in the CF section asking us what you should do... what might we suggest I wonder... you want a guitar you can leave out and travel around with to work and environmentally stable ..Hmmmmmm.....
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Old 11-10-2019, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kramster View Post
So you are in the CF section asking us what you should do... what might we suggest I wonder... you want a guitar you can leave out and travel around with to work and environmentally stable ..Hmmmmmm.....
Assuming you read what I said, I guess my biggest dilemma is the potential for the sound not measuring up for the money...The versatility of Carbon aside...

This is just not something I can speak to with my experience. That was where I was hoping to get some depth of experience and thoughts from people who have a lot of first hand experience with both worlds.

In any case, thanks for your help I guess?
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Old 11-10-2019, 08:42 AM
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As Kramster implied, you're in the wrong place if you want anything but encouragement to purchase a carbon fiber guitar. I've recently transitioned from owning seven Taylors to a smaller gaggle of carbon fiber guitars. Rainsong is currently undergoing a restructuring of their models, and 86ing IMO their most desirable model lines, the CH and H guitars. At current pricing, I believe that the Hybrids are the way to go, and more specifically, the H-DR1100N2. You'll find many who really don't like the N2 neck so that may be a contraindication for you. However, at the current price of $1599 (minus the current 15% discount at Musicians Friend) https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...coustic-guitar this is hard to beat in the carbon fiber world...

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Originally Posted by Dbone View Post
Assuming you read what I said, I guess my biggest dilemma is the potential for the sound not measuring up for the money...The versatility of Carbon aside...
Everybody perceives tone in a different way so nobody can really say for sure if the tone of a CF will measure up for you. I would say that most of us carbon fiber adherents - if not all - started out playing wooden guitars. Some of us own CF guitars exclusively now or a combination of wood and CF. I will say that you can order the previously mentioned H-DR1100N2 from Musicians Friend, try it out, and if it doesn't work for you then just return it, and you're only out the return shipping cost...
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Old 11-10-2019, 08:50 AM
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Okay, so would it be safe to assume that generally you guys felt (at least you 2) you took no significant loss in tone to achieve the clearer benefits of carbon?

I guess that is the side of things I’m interested in. You guys are clearly carbon advocates, but maybe you are okay with lesser tone given the other tremendous attributes of the carbon (assuming their might be less tone) etc...and you feel it is a good balance...as an example...

I guess the ultimate problem is I have zero experience with them, and I’m still trying to find some to try.

In any case, appreciate your thoughts. The carbon thing is super foreign to me.

Cheers
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:02 AM
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Issues with specific wood guitars aside (you have a lot of patience, which could serve you well in the carbon world), I really like the approach of having at least one carbon fiber guitar. Initially, I was so taken with the Emerald guitars I had (in the process of narrowing it down to a current model X7) that I seriously thought I might go ONLY carbon for my acoustic guitars in the future. After about a year with no wooden acoustics, though, I found I missed the aesthetic of wood, the look, the feel, etc. And while I wouldn't say I prefer the sound of wood or carbon - both can be incredibly great - there's enough difference between guitars that I'm happy to have more than one flavor represented. So I added back a Martin 000-15SM and I'm thrilled to have both. They're both incredible sounding, but not the same - both are warm but the X7 is a little smoother, the 000 has a more accessible growl to it. The X7 is a very short scale (24") while the 000 is a full scale guitar. Both are great for strumming and for fingerpicking. I also have laminate Alvarez, but it will be moving to Oregon to live with my recently relocated daughter so I'll have something to play when we visit out there in the coming years.

There's a beauty to being ALL-carbon and not having to ever give humidity another thought - I really enjoyed THAT part of my carbon-free year. But I'm finding that as long as I have one guitar I can leave out and have handy all the time, keeping the other(s) cased and humidified most of the time is not much of a hassle. When i was playing all-wood guitars before, I always had room humidifiers going in a failing attempt to keep the room adequately humidified so I could leave something out to just grab spontaneously. It felt like a not very successful full-time job and I kind of hated it. The relief of going all-carbon was IMMENSE!

But now I have my carbon acoustic hanging with my two solid-body electrics:

unnamed-1 by Ray, on Flickr

And about a step and a half away, I have my Martin cased on the top of a coffee table and my Alvarez cased just below it (until it leaves for the west coast). The Martin is almost as accessible as the ones on the wall, and the Alvarez is just a little bit less accessible. And I'm not running humidifiers in the room - just keeping humidipaks in the cases (not even in the sound holes, so it's super quick to grab a guitar and put one back).

unnamed by Ray, on Flickr

I had to think about humidity enough to get the room set up the way I wanted once I decided to add back some wooden acoustics, but once set up, in practice, it's very nearly a non-issue. And if my neuroses get the better of me during the very driest days, I just play the carbon fiber guitar that day, which was my only option last year this time. So, it's kind of a win win.

I've come to the conclusion that carbon fiber guitars sound every bit as good as wooden guitars, but no two guitars sound the same, so having a small variety of them is certainly reasonable. And I like the combination better than one or the other. You're right, though, that you can do better on a budget with wood - there are no bargain priced carbon fiber guitars of any quality out there. Yet. I'm sure in time there will be, but at this point you have to spend for a good carbon fiber guitar.

-Ray
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbone View Post
Okay, so would it be safe to assume that generally you guys felt (at least you 2) you took no significant loss in tone to achieve the clearer benefits of carbon?

I guess that is the side of things I’m interested in. You guys are clearly carbon advocates, but maybe you are okay with lesser tone given the other tremendous attributes of the carbon (assuming their might be less tone) etc...and you feel it is a good balance...as an example...

I guess the ultimate problem is I have zero experience with them, and I’m still trying to find some to try.

In any case, appreciate your thoughts. The carbon thing is super foreign to me.

Cheers
Lets face it, carbon fiber guitars are a relatively recent innovation, and I've NEVER seen one hanging in a store. It was initially a leap pf faith for me, and it still is as I purchase and audition various brands, models and shapes. I understand that you want a guarantee that a carbon fiber guitar will be the right decision and offer you the tone that you desire/demand, but this belies the fact that buying any guitar can not and will not include a guarantee of likability. I'm really not sure why you think that any of us can offer that guarantee.

I'd guess that most of us came for the practical advantages of carbon fiber and stayed for the tone. However, your repeatedly equating carbon fiber guitars and "lesser tone" in a single post tells me that you've already made up your mind and no carbon fiber guitar's tone is going to measure up...
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:15 AM
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I think that the CF tone is every bit as good as the wood. A bit different, but still excellent. I've posted it too many times before, but I sold my Martin 000-28 after my Emerald X20 arrived. The X20 was that good. Actually a lot better to my ears. Watch the AGF classifieds for a used CF, your loss should me minimal if you decide you don't like it and want to resell.
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by raysachs View Post
Issues with specific wood guitars aside (you have a lot of patience, which could serve you well in the carbon world), I really like the approach of having at least one carbon fiber guitar. Initially, I was so taken with the Emerald guitars I had (in the process of narrowing it down to a current model X7) that I seriously thought I might go ONLY carbon for my acoustic guitars in the future. After about a year with no wooden acoustics, though, I found I missed the aesthetic of wood, the look, the feel, etc. And while I wouldn't say I prefer the sound of wood or carbon - both can be incredibly great - there's enough difference between guitars that I'm happy to have more than one flavor represented. So I added back a Martin 000-15SM and I'm thrilled to have both. They're both incredible sounding, but not the same - both are warm but the X7 is a little smoother, the 000 has a more accessible growl to it. The X7 is a very short scale (24") while the 000 is a full scale guitar. Both are great for strumming and for fingerpicking. I also have laminate Alvarez, but it will be moving to Oregon to live with my recently relocated daughter so I'll have something to play when we visit out there in the coming years.

There's a beauty to being ALL-carbon and not having to ever give humidity another thought - I really enjoyed THAT part of my carbon-free year. But I'm finding that as long as I have one guitar I can leave out and have handy all the time, keeping the other(s) cased and humidified most of the time is not much of a hassle. When i was playing all-wood guitars before, I always had room humidifiers going in a failing attempt to keep the room adequately humidified so I could leave something out to just grab spontaneously. It felt like a not very successful full-time job and I kind of hated it. The relief of going all-carbon was IMMENSE!

But now I have my carbon acoustic hanging with my two solid-body electrics:

unnamed-1 by Ray, on Flickr

And about a step and a half away, I have my Martin cased on the top of a coffee table and my Alvarez cased just below it (until it leaves for the west coast). The Martin is almost as accessible as the ones on the wall, and the Alvarez is just a little bit less accessible. And I'm not running humidifiers in the room - just keeping humidipaks in the cases (not even in the sound holes, so it's super quick to grab a guitar and put one back).

unnamed by Ray, on Flickr

I had to think about humidity enough to get the room set up the way I wanted once I decided to add back some wooden acoustics, but once set up, in practice, it's very nearly a non-issue. And if my neuroses get the better of me during the very driest days, I just play the carbon fiber guitar that day, which was my only option last year this time. So, it's kind of a win win.

I've come to the conclusion that carbon fiber guitars sound every bit as good as wooden guitars, but no two guitars sound the same, so having a small variety of them is certainly reasonable. And I like the combination better than one or the other. You're right, though, that you can do better on a budget with wood - there are no bargain priced carbon fiber guitars of any quality out there. Yet. I'm sure in time there will be, but at this point you have to spend for a good carbon fiber guitar.

-Ray
I appreciate the chime in there sir...

I can tell from some recent exchanges that you and I had in other threads that we have some similar thinking on things...Some of that type of thinking, I think we can agree, drives ourselves nuts at times...lol

I have watched some videos on the carbons that seem to present them as comparing pretty well tone wise, but you know how some vids can be...not good sound, may not represent well...It is reassuring to get some first hand clearer comments from people like yourself on here that have a deeper first hand history in both worlds. This will be particularly true if I end up having to order one sight unseen type of thing with out trying one at all...

I tend to think there is a definite method to your madness. I just love wood guitars. It wouldn't matter if CF guitars were better in tone. I just would never be able to walk away from traditional guitars completely because tone and sound is not the only tangible aspect of them that I love. Not a chance of a complete walk away for this reason. The idea of augmenting them with a well chosen CF guitar, however, for functional reasons like you are suggesting makes a ton of sense to me...particularly if they are as good sounding and comparable as you are suggesting, and as some of the YouTube videos are suggesting...

My ultimate long term goal is to have in my arsenal one well chosen high quality larger body acoustic (which I believed I will have achieved in the LL56), one well chosen high quality smaller bodied acoustic, and one high quality electric guitar. That's it. The electric will come last because my heart is primarily in the acoustic world. I would like to play around a bit with an electric from time to time just for fun moving forward as the budget allows. I just don't want the overhead and maintenance that comes with owning a crap ton of guitars, particularly in an environment like that of Canada.

With the above said, perhaps my high quality smaller bodied guy can be a carbon fiber one. Worse case I have 4 guitars tops if I decide I want a conventional smaller bodied later. I'm starting to agree with you. At least one CF guitar in the stable probably makes a ton of sense.

Thanks for your input. Nice looking little play area you have there.
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:52 AM
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Kramster, RP:

Based on lack of experience only I likely wrongly assumed that generally speaking CF guitar we’re not as good as conventional guitars for tone. Sorry about that. I know nothing about them, and I have read everything from they are absolutely terrible tone wise to, really good, to excellent...which I suppose is no different than conventional guitars....lol...I should not have had the preconceived notion I had...

As for my asking for guarantees from anyone on here, I would love to see where I wrote that.

It’s all good. I can tell that I perhaps hit some sensibilities or annoyed a bit. This, with absolute sincerity, was not my intent. I’m sorry if I rubbed you guys the wrong way at all.

I was sincerely looking to leverage some of the deep knowledge that you folks on here definitely have...you 2 included...I know you guys have a lot to offer for thoughts generally because I observe your knowledge all the time in the posts that you make.

I know that we all perceive tone differently, but as some of the polling on here would suggested we also can often agree on what a good sounding guitar is as well. On this basis I thought there was general value in seeking some concrete advice from you folks.
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jdinco View Post
I think that the CF tone is every bit as good as the wood. A bit different, but still excellent. I've posted it too many times before, but I sold my Martin 000-28 after my Emerald X20 arrived. The X20 was that good. Actually a lot better to my ears. Watch the AGF classifieds for a used CF, your loss should me minimal if you decide you don't like it and want to resell.
Thank you for your input. I very much appreciate it.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:22 AM
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Assuming you read what I said, I guess my biggest dilemma is the potential for the sound not measuring up for the money...The versatility of Carbon aside...

This is just not something I can speak to with my experience. That was where I was hoping to get some depth of experience and thoughts from people who have a lot of first hand experience with both worlds.

In any case, thanks for your help I guess?
A quality all-carbon-fiber guitar is in the $2150 (Emerald X-20) to $2350 (RainSong WS1000) price range which is cheaper than a Martin D-18/D-28, and the carbon guitars come with electronics in that price range. You can save a good $150 or so by ordering these guitars without electronics. Frankly, my new Emerald X-20 is going easily head-to-head with the all-wood guitars I've played it with including my new Taylor 717e and my 2015 Taylor 618e. Today, I'll pit the Emerald X-20 against my Huss & Dalton TD-R. There's something about my Emerald X-20's tone that sounds nicer than the all-wood guitars! It has a rich and rounded tone while being able to encompass the whole frequency spectrum. I don't think you'll be disappointed in acquiring an Emerald X-20 or Emerald X-30.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:34 AM
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Db:

You might want to indicate where you are and ask if anyone near you has a CF instrument they would be willing to share for a moment or two.

You might also consider entering the CF market at a relatively low level of cost. For example, the LuvaMe has been getting a lot of attention and appears to be a pretty nice instrument for a relatively low price. (it's also cool looking) You might also check out Journey, Klos, and used options.

Also, some of the CF dealers have nice return policies where you might end up paying delivery cost that you can count as rental.

The way I've managed to try just about every nylon string CF guitar is to buy one, play it for a few months and then sell it and move on. I've never had a problem selling a CF guitar and I count any loss as rental. I've rented a lot of guitars, enjoyed them all, and managed to reach the point of custom ordering the characteristics I like best.

In any event, enjoy the search.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:39 AM
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Dbone: Speaking for myself, you didn't hit any sensibilities - I'm real happy with the direction that I've taken with my current gaggle of guitars. Nobody could convince me otherwise. However, your persistent question about tone (using the word less or lessor), which is a great question but one that addresses and demands a subjective response, made me think that you were looking for a guarantee that getting a carbon fiber guitar would be the right decision for you. It also led me to believe that you had a preconceived notion and would likely wind up with a conclusion based on that, should you decide to pull the plug. That was me reading the lines as well as between the lines which I was trained/practiced to do during a three decade career in institutional mental health and corrections. We often learn just as much from what a person is not saying as much as from what they are saying.

Because going carbon fiber was a great decision for me or any of us doesn't mean that it will be the same for you. We all perceive tone/comfort/playability in different ways and address our guitar buying/selling based on that. I've come to realize that I prefer the tone of larger bodied guitars so I've recently sold a Rainsong parlor and OM. Hopefully the new owners are pleased with them as many folks are, but as long as I can, my preference for playing and owning will be dreads and WS. At some point I may want to acquire a Rainsong Jumbo and/or an Emerald X30.

You expressed that a carbon fiber guitar may address the smaller bodied niche in your guitar collection, and I really think that is where the any tonal differences between wood and carbon fiber are least noticeable. However, I offer that decidedly biased opinion as one who doesn't really appreciate the tonality of smaller bodied guitars. It seems to me that as the quantity of sound grows from a larger bodied guitar, the quality of the tone becomes more readily apparent. Those with more discerning ears, especially in regard to smaller bodied guitars, will likely scoff at what I just said. But that is my reality just as everyone has a different tonal reality...
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:12 AM
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It's a legitimate question, and you cannot know for sure until you've tried - we all hear differently. Be aware that the various brands (with Rainsong, Composite Acoustics, Emerald being the most common) all have slightly different tone profiles, much the way that a Martin does not sound like a Taylor, even for comparable models. CA is reputed to sound the woodiest but can be quiet. Rainsong is good too but can be a bit crystalline in tone (more overtones). I have no experience with the brand new Vintage model with a wood veneered top. Only RP has one in hand so far, they are that new. Blackbird also makes a composite guitar, the El Capitan, made from linen fibers instead of carbon fibers, and it compared quite nicely to my various Taylor GA's.

What I can say is that a friend was recently considering the purchase of a used custom shop Martin OM28, a lovely little guitar. We did an extensive A/B test with my Emerald X20. Both he and I - and everyone else in the room - all thought that the X20 won hands down for richness of tone, volume, and playability. That does not count the price (actually lower for a new Emerald X20) or the durability benefits of CF. No, it did not sound exactly like the Martin, but its sound was preferred by all who heard it that day.

Emerald has a good return policy if you buy one from stock. You would be out ~US $155 for shipping both ways if you opted to return it. I don't know what the GST situation is in Canada on returns, so that might add some risk.
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