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  #16  
Old 05-07-2014, 11:41 AM
Luke_ Luke_ is offline
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Talk to Nate at Sweetwater today about microphones. They do not carry ADK or CAD microphones. His suggestions were more expensive in the 700 dollar range SE electronics makes an SE4 for stereo pair. He also recommended RODE M5 matched pair. The SE electronics pair are probably a little more expensive than I want to spend right now. In the RODE almost seem a little too inexpensive. I wonder how they would compare to the CAD E70 that we had discussed earlier. I don't want to cheap out on microphones I want to make sure that what I get is going to be accurate and not out of date and year so.. Same with the interface.
Also wonder what features are left out of the LE version of cubase (compare to full version).

Thanks legolas....

Bagpipe... I'm not a complete rookie but everyone I've talked to has suggested SDC in stereo so I'm guna be set on trying that. My AKG perception 120 isn't the answer I know that! Lol

Rick... I'm going to review that thread as soon as I get home from work always look forward to your expertise. Thanks to all that answered
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  #17  
Old 05-07-2014, 12:07 PM
Legolas1971 Legolas1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Luke_ View Post

Bagpipe... I'm not a complete rookie but everyone I've talked to has suggested SDC in stereo so I'm guna be set on trying that. My AKG perception 120 isn't the answer I know that! Lol
I have 2 AKG Perception 170's and they do a great job for me.....
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  #18  
Old 05-07-2014, 12:31 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Room Treatment?

Aloha Friends,

Yeah, yeah, I know. Here comes ol' aloha with another room treatment mantra for the unsuspecting.

I also know that discussing gear & miking techniques is far sexier than treatment at these forums. But unless you consider room treatment now - as you're putting together the elements of your home recording rigs - then ol' Luke here won't be able to use any other miking techniques but close-miking his 'foot stompin' in X-Y effectively to achieve decent results. Don't limit yourselves.

Bottom line? Without Room Treatment:
- your acoustic recordings will not sound that great or be consistent,
- your mic's, equipment, editing & mastering cannot be maximized (no matter the gear quality). You cannot hear clearly.
- you simply cannot use a variety of stereo miking techniques that utilize your entire recording space (extended spaced pairs, Blumlein, ORTF, M-S, over-shoulder/12th fret, modified Decca Tree or combinations, etc.). That limits your creativity.
- you are limited - by unabated early room reflections. It's your choice.

Treatment controls early room reflections, tames the nasty basses (especially if you treat room corners), truly defines & clarifies the frequencies, gets rid of the mud in the mid-range & can truly allow you to hear the subtleties of your guitar & voice in your recordings. What's so un-sexy about that?

So as you learn about recording & putting together a studio, please take all that under consideration & investigate some kind of DIY Room Treatment for your space. In the early stages, it's actually more important than the signal chain.

AND, Room Treatment does NOT have to be permanent or expensive.

Here are a few clues for those interested in RT info:

DIY treatment from Fran Guidry. Check out the friendly video on how to make your own portable broad-band absorbers (I made 22 for myself & they really work in any room! I put 'em away when not in use):

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

An Audible rationale for RT from Fran. Hear the difference in the video:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

The Room Treatment bible from Ethan Winer (it's all here, especially if you're technically inclined):

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

These cheap or free mover's blankets (ask for used from a moving co. & wash). Though they don't work for all freq's, Double Layers of blankets can get you started w/ room treatment easily & @ little or no cost. Hammer in 1/2" grommets along one end. Hang TWO LAYERS of blankets a min. of 4" apart & 4" off the wall or glass around where you track. Hang in front of windows, mirrors & other reflective surfaces. Double layers really help w/ upper mid's in small echo-ey rooms but NOT bass or lower-mid freq's that broad-band absorbers fix. Combine blankets (two layers) w/ absorbers for complete treatment:

http://www.uline.com/BL_7900/Moving-...Q&gclsrc=aw.ds

A studio building/room treatment forum:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...ing-acoustics/

Ya see friends, it doesn't matter if you are starting out with an H-2 recorder, a $50 mic, cheap headphones & free Audacity DAW or whether you invest in a full-on studio space & high quality gear w/ all the matched complementary signal chain elements. The truth is that you need room treatment in your equation as much as you need a microphone - even though it's NOT sexy (former serious mic addict here).

Room Treatment has made the biggest positive difference in my home DAW recordings - especially at the beginning. So please keep room treatment in mind. It'll save you a lot of time & money.

Many have tried to upgrade gear in hopes of improving their recordings, spending a lot of money, only to discover later - as they learn more - that all they needed was some simple portable, DIY room treatment for the clarity, consistency & FLEXIBILITY (as in stereo miking techniques for acoustic guitar) to achieve the sound in their acoustic recordings they seek. Don't make that same mistake, friends.

All the best!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 05-08-2014 at 11:46 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-07-2014, 01:16 PM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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To echo what alohacrhis said, room treatment will get you a lot further (to start) than spending the same amount of money (or more) on different microphones.
I built 6, with 1"x4" frames, using Roxul insulation as its a little cheaper than the OC703. I got my burlap at Walmart, and a staple gun at Harbor Freight for $6 including a ton of staples. total cost (because it cost me $70 to ship in the insulation - could not find a local source) was about $250. I've got them mounted on walls and ceiling with eye hooks, so they are easy to move around or stow away. I've got insulation for 4 more 4" thick traps, just waiting untilk I have a new desk built and some room rearranging before I do those.
Moving blankets - meh ... You can get them for $4-6 at Harbor Freight. You can mount them on the wall to rid yourself of some flutter echo, but they don't do any absorbtion of the low and mid-low frequencies that muddy up your recordings. I experimented with one and in the room I tried it made no difference in the recorded sound at all - YMMV depending on the room.
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  #20  
Old 05-07-2014, 02:47 PM
Luke_ Luke_ is offline
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I'm going to go over the info on RT and make a plan to get that done and record a before and after to validate the differences. I can only find out for myself what works and until I a/b the difference I won't have any idea how much it matters.
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  #21  
Old 05-07-2014, 03:48 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Consideration of the acoustic space you record in (and associated room treatment to whip it into shape...) is certainly of primary importance.
Once you start getting a handle on that I can second the pair of AKG Perception 170s for sdcs if you're looking for low budget mics. I think they sound really good given the price point. I have tests of all the mics I have using the same instrument and vocal phrase in a DAW so I can quickly compare / contrast the sound of them. The Perception 170 is quite close to my Rode NT1 for reproducing my acoustic guitar and voice. A little more focused obviously, but much closer to all my LDCs than my sdcs.
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  #22  
Old 05-07-2014, 04:35 PM
Luke_ Luke_ is offline
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That's too info Rudy...

Well I thought I'd DL the trial for cubase 7 essentials to make sure it would work. It doesn't say anything about vista (my OS) do you suppose it won't work or that they maybe trying to phase out vista? Kinda wanted to try it before I purchase and interface or mics I feel doing some sound panels and researching software compatibility seems to come first. Anyone know what DAW works with vista? I absolutely hate windows 7 or 8 platform and would buy a Mac before I pay for the 7,8 nightmare.
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  #23  
Old 05-07-2014, 05:26 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Originally Posted by Luke_ View Post
I thought we could continue the discussion of home studio here, where I can continue to suck up s'more input. Maybe we can reply here as long as y'all are still willing. I've got some general recording technique questions as you've prolly read.
It sounds like you want to build a home studio for recording. As you already know, there are numerous resources on the web which address this, perhaps too many.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Identify what you want to record, now and potentially in the future, and plan accordingly. Also, identify to whom you will distribute your recorded music and the purpose in doing so. For example, if you are only going to record an acoustic guitar and perhaps vocals, you don't need large near field monitors with extended bass response, nor do you need to be able to record more than two or three channels at the same time, nor do you need many mics, perhaps three or four at most. If you are recording for eventual commercial release, you don't need to fool with mastering software or hardware because you will hire someone else to do that, but if you are going to send your recordings to family and friends you will likely need to master yourself, so you might need something for that.

2) Determine everything you will need to acquire. Obviously, that includes mics and an interface, but also includes such mundane things as mic stands, cabling, room treatment, nearfield monitors, headphones, DAW software, software plugins, a work table, etc. Make a list of all the items. Many folks do without "everything" on the list, but if you do so you should first understand why that item is a normal item for studios before you decide to do without it. Also keep in mind that there are products that combine many needed functions into one product, e.g., an interface will have mic preamps, AD and DA converters, DI inputs, a monitoring path (headphone and near field outputs) and (often) DAW software).

3) Determine your overall budget for everything, or at least realize what would need to be spent to get everything. Double the budget. Within that doubled budget allocate funds for the major items, i.e., room treatment, mics, near field monitors, etc. The things to try to avoid scrimping on (in a relative quality sense) are mics and monitors, which are the transducers at each end of the chain and which interface between the sound you make and hear with the world of analog electronics. You can economize with DIY projects (e.g., bass traps) or purchasing used (there's plenty of excellent used gear out there that is barely used at low prices).

4) After all this, now shop for brands and models of gear and software. Don't be surprised in you end up doubling your budget (a second time).

5) Once you get the stuff, you will need to spend time learning how to use it. Hundreds of hours.

Last edited by sdelsolray; 05-07-2014 at 05:48 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-07-2014, 08:00 PM
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Well I got cubase working and spent 3 hrs trying to get it recognize my irig pro. Just did a couple of 20sec clips to see how it sounds and if it will record. Finally got it to lay something down and wasn't impressed with the quality. Could be the mic or placement. Just not clean. Ill monkey with it more and see if I can't get anything better maybe I'll go back to mixcraft and have a reference of the familiar. Really not crazy about the immediate controls. Maybe the light version doesn't have the greatest plugins
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  #25  
Old 05-07-2014, 10:40 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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The idea of recording before and after room treatment is a great idea. You'll be able to document your progress.

I'd word the word treatment suggestions a little differently than Chris and a few other - I'd say it matters a lot what your room sounds like. That *probably* involves doing some room treatment to correct. But a lot depends on what you have to start with. You might be lucky and happen to have a nice sounding room already. A reasonable furnished living room often is often not all that bad for guitar or voice as long as you're close micing. Or it could be really bad. There are some free tools out (like Room EQ Wizard) there that can help a bit in understanding your room, tho it gets a little geeky. Might be easiest to just try it and see.

As an example of what you *might* accomplish with room treatment, here's the before and after test I did when I set up my studio. Here's my untreated garage, recorded in mono from 18 inches away:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/1..._bare_room.mp3

And here's the same mic position after I was about 75% done treating the room:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/mp3/F...3_18inches.mp3

It got a bit better from there as I tuned the room, and also as I started using closer mic placement, working with different mics, etc.

The funny thing is that I originally built the garage studio in part because I had been recording in a typical 10x10 bedroom and had acoustics issue - boomy notes, distant sound, and so on. It didn't sound nearly as bad as the untreated garage, but it wasn't good. But later on, I ended up using that same room for shooting you tube videos, still untreated, and now it seems acceptable. Here's a fairly recent recording in that room:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cxcjXQUZJ0

I'd chalk the difference between the old bad sound and the current sound to using hypercardiod (very directional) mics, placed fairly close, and just learning about the recording process, maybe even different guitars. Actually another important difference is that tho I may record (video) in an untreated room - I mix in the treated room, so I can hear better than I used to.

In any case, I'd say setting up a home studio is a journey. Part gear, part dealing with acoustics, and a lot of learning curve about everything from how to use the gear to your playing. Have fun!
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  #26  
Old 05-08-2014, 05:45 AM
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Doug the difference in treated to non treated is amazing. I'm seeing a lot of info on building panels and that's prolly what I'll end up doing. Maybe do a > in front of me and maybe one on top or one behind. I'm not going to get really crazy because my intentions are recreational. Also the more serious I am the steeper the learning curve gets. If I don't expect much I may just surprise myself.

Anyone have any input on just a few panels like I'm suggesting? The room is in the basement 18x18 est. and has one concrete wall and just some non insulated paneling. The back of the room is open as it adjoins the next room so it's not really a closed room that's why I'm considering a few panels. Maybe just setup a corner or something?
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  #27  
Old 05-08-2014, 06:56 AM
whitecloud whitecloud is offline
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Originally Posted by Luke_ View Post
Talk to Nate at Sweetwater today about microphones. They do not carry ADK or CAD microphones. His suggestions were more expensive in the 700 dollar range SE electronics makes an SE4 for stereo pair. He also recommended RODE M5 matched pair. The SE electronics pair are probably a little more expensive than I want to spend right now. In the RODE almost seem a little too inexpensive. I wonder how they would compare to the CAD E70 that we had discussed earlier. I don't want to cheap out on microphones I want to make sure that what I get is going to be accurate and not out of date and year so.. Same with the interface.
Also wonder what features are left out of the LE version of cubase (compare to full version).

Thanks legolas....

Bagpipe... I'm not a complete rookie but everyone I've talked to has suggested SDC in stereo so I'm guna be set on trying that. My AKG perception 120 isn't the answer I know that! Lol

Rick... I'm going to review that thread as soon as I get home from work always look forward to your expertise. Thanks to all that answered
I am coming to the conclusion that Sweetwater is only great when buying low cost items no limit on price for free shipping and no tax. My Sweetwater rep hasn't been all that great when it comes to asking for advice. Sure they are going to recommend what they carry. Here is one example. The received a large number of M-Audio's Venom synthesizer. They were going for $200.00 on the blowout from the regular $500.00 price. He told me it sounds like an Access "Virus" synth. I already knew that was BS as the Venom has such a different sound. The Virus go up to 1-2 grand. His advice was way off as he was just trying to make a sale. Not long ago I asked about some SDC's and he told me they all sound the same until you get to that 7 hundred dollar price range. You are right The AKG Perception 120 is not a very good mic, but might make a great weapon. I know from experience as does my friend here in town. It never gets used. Cheaper Rode mics known to be brittle on the high end. I will received my Cad e70 Stereo bundle today and will put them to the test after I un-box. I'll have a session/Project ready for recording. So it will be testing different mic placements. I should have some clips on Soundcloud in a day or so.
@luke Cubase Essentials 7+ works great on Win 7 64 bit. Vista and Win 8 are the real losers as far as OS goes. I haven't upgraded Cubase 7.1+ to 7.5(the lastest version) I think for me it will cost 50 bucks. I am hearing some good things with the latest version. Not as much moaning. I will upgrade soon. I would imagine your demo version is the current one.
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2014, 07:21 AM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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I think people already pointed you to Fran Guidry's hombrew music site. He has demos of building cheap panels, and has a demo of using as little as two panels to create a local space.

Btw, my room was 13x15 with concrete floors and sheetrock walls, so your starting place is probably a lot like mine. I have the equvalent of about 30 panels as well as some corner traps to tame my space.
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  #29  
Old 05-08-2014, 07:32 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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I am coming to the conclusion that Sweetwater is only great when buying low cost items no limit on price for free shipping and no tax. My Sweetwater rep hasn't been all that great when it comes to asking for advice. Sure they are going to recommend what they carry. Here is one example. The received a large number of M-Audio's Venom synthesizer. They were going for $200.00 on the blowout from the regular $500.00 price. He told me it sounds like an Access "Virus" synth. I already knew that was BS as the Venom has such a different sound. The Virus go up to 1-2 grand. His advice was way off as he was just trying to make a sale. Not long ago I asked about some SDC's and he told me they all sound the same until you get to that 7 hundred dollar price range. You are right The AKG Perception 120 is not a very good mic, but might make a great weapon. I know from experience as does my friend here in town. It never gets used. Cheaper Rode mics known to be brittle on the high end. I will received my Cad e70 Stereo bundle today and will put them to the test after I un-box. I'll have a session/Project ready for recording. So it will be testing different mic placements. I should have some clips on Soundcloud in a day or so.
@luke Cubase Essentials 7+ works great on Win 7 64 bit. Vista and Win 8 are the real losers as far as OS goes. I haven't upgraded Cubase 7.1+ to 7.5(the lastest version) I think for me it will cost 50 bucks. I am hearing some good things with the latest version. Not as much moaning. I will upgrade soon. I would imagine your demo version is the current one.
One comment I'd make about on-line shopping in general, I'd take ANY sales staff recommendation with a grain of salt. There's just no guarantee as to what the motivations are on the other end of the phone.

The best thing to do is research what you want and then go shopping. I love Sweetwater's service and have bought many things from them, about $4000 worth that I can think of right now. One of the critical things to remember is Sweetwater automatically extends factory warranties to a full two years, Yes, I've had occasion to use it after having a recorder develop problems 1-1/2 years after purchase.
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  #30  
Old 05-08-2014, 07:35 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
It sounds like you want to build a home studio for recording. As you already know, there are numerous resources on the web which address this, perhaps too many.

Here are some thoughts:

1) Identify what you want to record, now and potentially in the future, and plan accordingly. Also, identify to whom you will distribute your recorded music and the purpose in doing so. For example, if you are only going to record an acoustic guitar and perhaps vocals, you don't need large near field monitors with extended bass response, nor do you need to be able to record more than two or three channels at the same time, nor do you need many mics, perhaps three or four at most. If you are recording for eventual commercial release, you don't need to fool with mastering software or hardware because you will hire someone else to do that, but if you are going to send your recordings to family and friends you will likely need to master yourself, so you might need something for that.

2) Determine everything you will need to acquire. Obviously, that includes mics and an interface, but also includes such mundane things as mic stands, cabling, room treatment, nearfield monitors, headphones, DAW software, software plugins, a work table, etc. Make a list of all the items. Many folks do without "everything" on the list, but if you do so you should first understand why that item is a normal item for studios before you decide to do without it. Also keep in mind that there are products that combine many needed functions into one product, e.g., an interface will have mic preamps, AD and DA converters, DI inputs, a monitoring path (headphone and near field outputs) and (often) DAW software).

3) Determine your overall budget for everything, or at least realize what would need to be spent to get everything. Double the budget. Within that doubled budget allocate funds for the major items, i.e., room treatment, mics, near field monitors, etc.

The things to try to avoid scrimping on (in a relative quality sense) are mics and monitors, which are the transducers at each end of the chain and which interface between the sound you make and hear with the world of analog electronics.

You can economize with DIY projects (e.g., bass traps) or purchasing used (there's plenty of excellent used gear out there that is barely used at low prices).

4) After all this, now shop for brands and models of gear and software. Don't be surprised in you end up doubling your budget (a second time).

5) Once you get the stuff, you will need to spend time learning how to use it. Hundreds of hours.
THAT'S a great point that you don't see emphasized enough. I'm stealing the line for my own website!
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