General Durability Question about Carbon Fiber Guitars

[AsianGuy]

Howdy all!

I’m usually on the “General Acoustic Guitar Discussion” side of the forum and have recently been curious about acquiring a carbon fiber guitar.
I’m specifically curious about the durability of these instruments. I encountered sales guys often using the terms “bomb/bullet proof” for these guitars, but just how durability are they?

I know they are marketed as temperature and humidity resistant, but just how resistant? Do I not have to worry about them in a car on a hot summer day? Or are most of the temperature and humidity resilience overstated?

Another question is how concern should I be about the guitar being exposed the sun (UV)? I realize you would never put a wooden guitar in direct sunlight, but as I understand it, carbon fiber resin becomes unstable over time with prolong exposure to sunlight (UV). (I been reading a few older post where owners claim their carbon fiber instruments seem to sound poorer over time – which makes me wonder if this is the reason).

Sorry if these question are a bit strange or have been answered before, I just wanted to know the difference between fact and fiction as to the durability of these instruments before making a major purchase

[jdinco]

I can't give specifics, maybe others can. I've owned 2 Rainsongs, they were left in HOT campers, freezing temps in the car and one sat beside a wood burning stove for years with no ill effects. There's very few things (I'm thinking bricks or rocks here) that can stand up to long term UV exposure, so if you were sitting a CF guitar in full sun every day for years, there may be some problems, but I don't know that. Bottom line is that with any amount of reasonable care, I can't imagine having any issues with a CF guitar. If you look at the old posts, you will find more people asking this question than actually saying they have problems with their CF guitar. It seems very rare to me. Try one, you'll like it !

[Captain Jim]

"Bullet proof" or "bomb proof" is not what carbon fiber is all about. Certainly more durable than wood (especially the thin wood used on guitars), but you still need to take reasonable care.

I don't go out of my way to subject my CF guitars to extreme heat or cold, but they handle the changes in climate just fine. AND, no worries about humidity or lack thereof. My RainSong Shorty came with a hard shell case, but I use a nice Access gig bag for it. My Emerald X7 came with a great gig bag. We travel a lot, by RV or boat, not flying, so the HSC isn't an advantage for me, with the weight and space it takes.

As far as the guitars "sounding worse with age": nope. There was one uninformed poster a while back who was referring to an old Ovation, not a carbon fiber guitar. Plenty of participants here who have owned CF since the "early days" who will vouch that they sound just as good now as they did when new.

I was a confirmed wood guitar guy who discovered the advantages of carbon fiber a few years ago. I originally bought for the durability/ease of care, but I am still around because they (at least the ones I own) have such a great sound.

No, you aren't going to use these fine instruments as a canoe paddle or pound nails with 'em. But, if you want to make some great music and not have to worry about changes in climate/humidity, they are great.

Seems that most of these guitars are black (both of mine are) - I have used mine playing out in the sunshine, with no issues... no losing tune, no change in sound. But, like a black car will have a warmer surface than a light colored car in the sunshine, you may notice the heat. CF isn't going to come apart on you because you play in the sunshine... but, I wouldn't leave anything out in the sun that doesn't have to be there. Reference the sailboat masts that are carbon fiber (that are in the sun all the time). Or composite aircraft (that are generally painted white).

Plenty of "mis-information" out there regarding carbon fiber guitars... generally from those who have never owned one. Two of the last three guitars I bought are CF... I don't have immediate plans for "the next one," but it will be carbon fiber.

Stick around - lots of good info on this sub-forum.

Jim

[MikeB1]

I agree with Captain Jim. I think the main point is that once you own one of these fine instruments, you are not going to go out of your way to test it.

I think when people are having the “bullet proof” conversations they are actually talking about: what is the “breaking point”? If that is actually what you want to know, then you might be better served by putting that question to the builders of these instruments or perhaps we have individuals here with the science background that may also weigh in.

However, for me, that is not really the relevant question. For me, it is about not having to worry about the same degree of humidity changes in my house as I would have to worry about with a wood guitar. However, I would not go out of my way to place my CF instrument in extremes because I have a respect for the instrument and the builder who put so much into creating it.

So for example, when I had a wood guitar, I was very meticulous about attending to the humidity in my house; keeping it between 45 to 50%. I had to worry if the humidifier was filled up if I was going away for a few days. Now with a CF guitar, I don’t worry if its 35%. Nevertheless, when the heat is on during the winter, and the humidity can go down to 15%, I would still just turn on the humidifier.

So it’s a matter of not needing to worry about it as much, but also not needing to test it either.

I hope that makes sense and I have given you an idea what it’s like to own a CF guitar!!!

P.S. Just to add a point about “general durability,” I might add that my CF guitar rarely even goes out of tune, even with all the extra sub-basses!!!

[Acousticado]

All I can add is to say that as a guitar owner, you already know how to handle and take care of your instruments, so it's unlikely that you'd push any quality product to silly limits. In addition to great, unique tones worthy of a place among fine wood guitars, CF will alleviate the bothersome aspects of wood guitar ownership that we're all well aware of, plus they stay in-tune much better and are tougher, but not indestructible. The tone will not denigrate over time...likely not improve either except through string choices. Hope this helps you take the leap of faith like so many of us here who are quite satisfied with our CF experiences.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by AsianGuy

Howdy all!

I’m usually on the “General Acoustic Guitar Discussion” side of the forum and have recently been curious about acquiring a carbon fiber guitar.
I’m specifically curious about the durability of these instruments. I encountered sales guys often using the terms “bomb/bullet proof” for these guitars, but just how durability are they?

I know they are marketed as temperature and humidity resistant, but just how resistant? Do I not have to worry about them in a car on a hot summer day? Or are most of the temperature and humidity resilience overstated?

Another question is how concern should I be about the guitar being exposed the sun (UV)? I realize you would never put a wooden guitar in direct sunlight, but as I understand it, carbon fiber resin becomes unstable over time with prolong exposure to sunlight (UV). (I been reading a few older post where owners claim their carbon fiber instruments seem to sound poorer over time – which makes me wonder if this is the reason).

Sorry if these question are a bit strange or have been answered before, I just wanted to know the difference between fact and fiction as to the durability of these instruments before making a major purchase

First of all, the stories you might have read about carbon fiber guitars loose their tonal qualities over time are nonsense, certainly with brands I have extensive experience with like Rainsong, CA, Blackbird and a few others. Not sure which guitars are mentioned in the posts you've read, but the last time something like that was posted here it was about an Ovation, which are not carbon fiber.

Regarding UV, most of the manufacturers mention that the finish they use protects against UV, so even if you play your Rainsong exclusively in the sun, you should be fine. The CA RAW models are an exception here as they have no finish on the top, or at least they didn't last I checked, so if you are planning to spend all your time playing under the sun, you might want to opt for a different finish.

As to adverse humidity and temps, I've left Rainsongs, Blackbirds, and CA's in the back of my SUV for months at a time, with temps hitting 100 outside, and one of my Rainsongs spent two weeks in my wood shed during the winter at my vacation home in the local mountains where temps got down to the teens, and through it all there have been no ill effects.

Having said all that, as with anything, you have to exercise common sense. Yes, a well made carbon fiber guitar can handle things that will destroy a wood guitar in a hurry, but you still have to treat them with respect.

[Kray Van Kirk]

I think everyone has hit the nail on the head here - nobody is going to buy a CF guitar and then go try and find out how to break it. I've had a pair of Rainsongs for 10+ years, and they have been largely impervious to the rigors of touring and the regular wear and tear you'd expect, including hot cars, cold cars (I live in Alaska) and so on. The only two exceptions: the barn door electronics on the WS3000 are regularly punched out of the frame by airline travel (I use a screwdriver to re-set it, but that has nothing to do with the guitar being CF - it's the barn-door controls and airline travel), and the WS3000 also has a small dent in the face produced by a temper-tantrum-flung statistics book (FWIW - this dent would likely have meant a shattered finish and cracked top on a wooden guitar. I'm more mature now. I think).

When I first came to Alaska, I tried to drive from Skagway to Anchorage the day after Thanksgiving. I had three wooden instruments. I made it to Whitehorse before getting a hotel and making a beeline back to the ferry the next morning. I'd had all three guitars stuffed into sleeping bags in the van, but the finish on all three of them shattered and cracked into spiderwebs from the wood shrinkage in the cold (the van was old and the heat broke on that trip). This last January I was in Fairbanks and had both my CF guitars in the car and in the bottom of the airplane with no problems at all.

I live in the opposite weather extreme faced by Mr. Kirk. I live in the Nevada desert. Last week there were a few 117 degree days. On Sundays I play in the park, under the shade, where it is only in the high 90s. One of my guitars is in an outside room that is not cooled. I have had CF instruments from all of the makers and never had structural or surface problems. I did once grab a guitar bag off a picnic table in a rock-floored area, I had not zipped up the bag and the guitar flipped up and dropped face down on the rock--I got a small ding out of that.

[Kray Van Kirk]

117?!?!

That is insane!!! :-O

[ukejon]

Originally Posted by Kray Van Kirk

117?!?!

That is insane!!! :-O

My son is a US Marine stationed in the Middle East and the real temp hit 125 the other day, which had a "feels-like" rating of 160 degrees!

Ukejon;

What I appreciate most in your thread is the durability of humanity. Your son is the human CF, working through intolerable heat, working to serve those of us the luxury of our comfortable worlds. Thank your son for me.

evan

[AsianGuy]

I want to thank everyone for responding and providing me with a wealth of new information. It definitely has inspired me to move closer to a CF guitar purchase!

[jdinco]

What Evan said.....thanks!

[Mbroady]

I recently had a conversation with one of the Carbon fiber manufactures about one of their guitars I tried in one of the local shops. I told him that the guitar was in horrible shape, the neck relief was such that the guitar was unplayable and the saddle was shaved down so far that there was hardly anything left (it was not one of the pre-pevy CA guitars that had neck issues). The owner of the company said that he knew the Store and that he knew they had left this guitar in the window for several years. "Direct sound light every day for years will eventually have a negative impact" was his comment. Carbon fiber is strong and durable and will, in most cases, outlast any wood guitar but they are not indestructible.

With that said, I have left carbon fiber guitars in the back of a hot car for hours and never had a problem.

[Kray Van Kirk]

Mbroady - Now I really want to ask the name of the store, but I won't!!

Three syllables... sounds like... um...

But that's a very interesting point about long-term, sustained exposure to sunlight.