Tilting Neck angle for a taller saddle

[N+1]

Originally Posted by ChalkLitIScream

Is there anything 'wrong' with pitching the neck so that straightedge rises over the bridge, say .03 inches more than usual

There's an interesting short discussion between Bob Taylor and Andy Powers about precisely this neck angle issue, here.

Bob Taylor comments in that video about the effect of tilting the neck very slightly back from the optimum position, and observes that the result has a tendency to be 'a bit buzzy'. I can confirm that. I had the neck reset (professionally) on my Martin DM, and the neck angle is now just slightly off the optimum (pointing slightly above the top of the bridge, much as you are suggesting) - so the saddle has to sit a bit higher than normal (as you are contemplating) to get the action right. And I must say, it is indeed 'a bit buzzy', regardless of the relief I settle on. I wish, now, that I'd left the neck alone and just lived with the higher action.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by N+1

There's an interesting short discussion between Bob Taylor and Andy Powers about precisely this neck angle issue, here.

Bob Taylor comments in that video about the effect of tilting the neck very slightly back from the optimum position, and observes that the result has a tendency to be 'a bit buzzy'. I can confirm that. I had the neck reset (professionally) on my Martin DM, and the neck angle is now just slightly off the optimum (pointing slightly above the top of the bridge, much as you are suggesting) - so the saddle has to sit a bit higher than normal (as you are contemplating) to get the action right. And I must say, it is indeed 'a bit buzzy', regardless of the relief I settle on. I wish, now, that I'd left the neck alone and just lived with the higher action.

What is the exact distance between the underside of the E string and the top of the guitar, measured at the bridge?

[redir]

I don't see how the neck angle can make a guitar buzzy. Buzz comes from bad frets or action that is too low. Likewise it's silly to say that with a glued in neck what you see is what you get... Like you don't measure it or anything? I used to do dovetails and I've reset enough necks to know that when you do it right you get the string height at the bridge EXACTLY where you want it. It's not a guessing game.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by N+1

Bob Taylor comments in that video about the effect of tilting the neck very slightly back from the optimum position, and observes that the result has a tendency to be 'a bit buzzy'. I can confirm that.

Interesting. Can you elaborate on what, exactly, "a bit buzzy" means, in practical terms, on your instrument? How does it differ from before your neck reset?

[ruby50]

"Bob Taylor comments in that video about the effect of tilting the neck very slightly back from the optimum position"

In that video he comments on how if the neck were pointed up so that the bridge was very very thin, the guitar would have more power. What if there were no bridge and the saddle Was inlaid into the top and were tall enough to get enough break angle on the strings?

Ed

[ChalkLitIScream]

https://youtu.be/2-M4Lzr1kc4?t=115

take a look from that time frame. I did watch this a while back, but failed to hear the ''buzzy'' description.

Bob says that pointing the neck lower near the soundboard (and essentially lowering the string height off the top), you get a more powerful sound. ISnt that contradictory to general consensus that a low string height off the top is suboptimal?


Mr. Powers mentions that you focus the sound to a narrower spectrum if the neck is angled up (as Im trying to do).
What does he mean by this? Are we getting a less dynamic sound? Sacrificing bass and treble for some mid range boost?

[N+1]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

What is the exact distance between the underside of the E string and the top of the guitar, measured at the bridge?

15mm. I think that's 1 or 2 mm higher than the ideal, isn't it? That's roughly consistent with what I see when I lay a rule down the neck - it points about 1mm above the top of the bridge.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Interesting. Can you elaborate on what, exactly, "a bit buzzy" means, in practical terms, on your instrument? How does it differ from before your neck reset?

I'm not sure I can. After the reset I thought the sound of the guitar had a tendency to a kind of metallic brashness that hadn't been there before, but which I couldn't pin down. It was after this that I found Bob Taylor's video, and his phrase 'a bit buzzy' seemed to describe what I was hearing: a slight metal-on-metal edginess. I may of course be misidentifying the problem.

However, the main point of my post was simply to throw Bob Taylor's comments into the discussion. The situation with my DM is a side issue.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by ChalkLitIScream

https://youtu.be/2-M4Lzr1kc4?t=115
Mr. Powers mentions that you focus the sound to a narrower spectrum if the neck is angled up (as Im trying to do).
What does he mean by this?

I don't understand what Andy Powers is saying there. My attention was mostly on what Bob was saying about the 'buzziness' in relation to neck angle. He also says, I notice, that although it may not be a strictly logical consequence, it's nevertheless something he knows to be true.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by N+1

15mm. I think that's 1 or 2 mm higher than the ideal, isn't it? That's roughly consistent with what I see when I lay a rule down the neck - it points about 1mm above the top of the bridge.

15mm is way too high.

The unpalatable fact is that your luthier has overset the neck, and overset it quite considerably.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by N+1

I had the neck reset (professionally) on my Martin DM, and the neck angle is now just slightly off the optimum (pointing slightly above the top of the bridge, much as you are suggesting) - so the saddle has to sit a bit higher than normal (as you are contemplating) to get the action right.

How much saddle protrudes from the bridge now, after the neck reset?

Originally Posted by N+1

15mm. I think that's 1 or 2 mm higher than the ideal, isn't it?

"The number" usually targeted is 1/2" (12.7 mm).

Originally Posted by N+1

I'm not sure I can. After the reset I thought the sound of the guitar had a tendency to a kind of metallic brashness that hadn't been there before,

Thanks for the description. I'd be surprised if a 2 mm increase above the target neck angle would produce such an obvious change, but it might be the change from where it was to where it was now - too low to too high.

However, the main point of my post was simply to throw Bob Taylor's comments into the discussion.

In the past, I've found it prudent not to comment on things Taylor/Powers.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

The unpalatable fact is that your luthier has overset the neck

Exactly. The unfortunate consequences of that are what caused me to take notice of Bob Taylor's comment, and to make my initial post.

[John Arnold]

After the reset I thought the sound of the guitar had a tendency to a kind of metallic brashness that hadn't been there before, but which I couldn't pin down.

Two things at play here. Lower than ideal action, and overset neck. Both will tend to produce less than optimal sound. When the strings are too high off the top, the excess torque can 'tighten up' the top, making it less responsive, particularly in the low frequencies. Low action also limits the vibration of the strings. Since bass strings vibrate in a larger envelope, low action affects the bass strings more than the trebles.
The OP has a different problem....a too-low saddle when the action is optimized. This begs for more neck angle.
The overset neck is a common problem when the repairman or luthier has limited experience. On a dreadnought with standard Martin dimensions, the ratio between the straightedge measurement at the bridge and the amount trimmed at the bottom of the heel is 3 to 1. In other words, whatever is trimmed at the heel is multiplied by three at the bridge. It's an easy thing for the novice to misjudge or overshoot.

[N+1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

How much saddle protrudes from the bridge now, after the neck reset?

Slightly more than 5mm - it's clearly too high. The old saddle had to be discarded because it was too low.

In the past, I've found it prudent not to comment on things Taylor/Powers.

After the unhappy experience with the DM, I became acutely aware of the great advantage of Taylor's detachable neck. A neck reset was no longer a matter of major surgery - it was of no more concern than putting on a new set of strings. Most of my guitars are Taylors, now - so I guess that makes me more interested in what they say.

[ChalkLitIScream]

Originally Posted by N+1

Just out of curiousity, is there always a difference of 0.06 between the 2 shims?

From what I know, the 2 surfaces are built square, and would we just set the angle with the shim parallel to the top, and then just stick the shim thats -.06 of the shim parallel to the top?